Why This Belief?

The fundies are scary to some people because there is a perception - right or wrong - that they will carry over their religious beliefs into government if given the chance. They are the ones who are talking about discriminating against gays, returning capital punishment, etc.In Canada, we have a more subtle separation of church and state than our neighbours. Any disruption of that status quo makes people uncomfortable. Politicians are welcome to worship in whatever way they choose, and to do it openly. But don't bring it into politics.(Now you can go back to your topic. )

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

So, Satan is just as powerful, and probably more powerful than God?

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Whether or not the original story is true or not, is irrelevant.

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I disagree on it's irrelevance ifa) people claim that the story is factually true and promote this belief to millions of others, andb) those millions base their entire lives upon this story and therefore affect my life in fundamental ways.

So, what is the good that comes out of a infant born without a brain?Jeffery Dahmer? Oklahoma City Bombing?Also, what about when bad things come out of things I thought were good?You are just making a statement of faith that every horrible, awful, terrible thing to ever happen MUST have some good attached to it.Why MUST they? Because it seems that you MUST view your God in those terms or you might lose your faith.Well, that seems a lot like making excuses for an all-powerful God to me.

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I have found nothing to contradict what I went through, or explain it away.

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Self-delusion
Wishful-thinking
post-hoc reasoning
communal reinforcement
Schizophrenia
boredome
disillusionment with your previous life's pathEver consider any of these more mundane explanations?

Where did you ever deduce and conclude this?? Satan only has the power that people give him. Unfortunately, that is a lot of power. All of you who smugly think that human reasoning and wisdom has gone beyond the "god myth" are actually playing right into satans hands. I won't argue the point, however. It is best for you to do your best with what you believe.

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"It is as impossible for man to demonstrate the existence of God as it would be for even Sherlock Holmes to demonstrate the existence of Arthur Conan Doyle."
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"Religion points to that area of human experience where in one way or another man comes upon mystery as a summons to pilgrimage."
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"People are prepared for everything except for the fact that beyond the darkness of their blindness there is a great light. They are prepared to go on breaking their backs plowing the same old field until the cows come home without seeing, until they stub their toes on it, that there is a treasure buried in that field rich enough to buy Texas. They are prepared for a God who strikes hard bargains but not for a God who gives as much for an hour's work as for a day's. They are prepared for a mustard-seed kingdom of God no bigger than the eye of a newt but not for the great banyan it becomes with birds in its branches singing Mozart. They are prepared for the potluck supper at First Presbyterian but not for the marriage supper of the lamb".Frederick Buechner

The subject of our sidebar here is, that only one can be the original, the rest that follow are imitations. That is a truth.It is irrelevant if people are imitating something that is real or fake, that is a different subject.This probably also doesn't garauntee that all others are fakes, but maybe poor interpretations, leading to a sense of "fakeness".

Absolutly.
That is why I continue to test what I went through to this day.Out of all our conversations that we've had, and its been quite a few. Besides that I believe in God, have you found me to be any of those things in my words?Boredom is definatly out, I am into more things than you can count, always have been.Previous life's past? lmao, I am still on the same path, I just found God for myself.communal reinforcement? You mean I am lonely? I have to turn down freindships, and I have 5 kids, I am one busy dude, who is greatly accepted where ever I go. Plus I own my own heating, and plumbing business, which in its 5 year of business, just might gross out $500,000.Wishful thinking? We all experience that to a degree, some more than others, but that doesn't explain what happened to me.post-hoc reasoning? I think I am incapable of that due to my open mindedness. post-hoc seems more of a crutch for people who believe in evolution. Just because I believe in God, doesn't explain where he came from, and only creates more questions in my mind.Schizophrenia? I am not, yes I am, shut-up, no you shut-up, I apologize, no we don't.
Schizophrenia-the new cure for drugs, and alcohol addiction, also stop hurting people, start giving to charity, and basically change your life for the better, but be careful, you might give it to others.
Schizophrenia-the new path to forgiveness.
Schizophrenia-how to find true love
Schizophrenia-fixes you marraige
Schizophrenia-makes you love your kids better, and cures you of strongholds in your life. Can wipe out childhood pain.
Schizophrenia-$19.95, call now, and I'll send you 2 of them in a bottle, no it's one, shut-up its 2.Accept Jesus into your life, and enter the gates of, you guessed it-Schizophrenia! It's automatic, it's free, don't delay, better than being drunk.Ok, so either you won't get it, (but I know you will, because you love and understood the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy) or you really think I am nutz. I believe you have a sense of humor, and understand.

OK, so Satan isn't more powerful than God.So all of the evil and suffering that Satan causes could be stopped by God, but he doesn't?Either God is a just and merciful god that doesn't want us to suffer, or he is a capricious, vengeful god who sometimes lets Satan perpetrate pointless suffering and evil for no apparent reason.I mean, look at it like parenting.If I get punished by a parent, or the parent lets bad things happen to me, but I can't figure out why I'm being punished or why the parent stands by and lets bad things happen to me because it's never explained to me, then I think I'm pretty justified in thinking that this parent of mine is pretty inconsistent and unreasonable.Wouldn't the parent of even the most ungrateful, bratty, poorly-behaved child still pull that child out of the path of a car if the child wandered into the street?A good parent would, but God appears to not be bothered a lot of the time.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-07-2005 09:01 AM

Yes. However, free will as a concept is much the same as letting your child go off into the night trusting that they will avoid drunk drivers, lecherous perps, and seedy drug dealers. If they O.D. at 1 a.m., that is on them and not on the parents. (Hey--you raise them as best as you can, right?)You are going to claim that God has the power to foreknow and thus stop all evil from occurring. I will counter that with the premise that God allowed a created society to
1) Be free to choose...leading to evil as a bad choice.
This caused evil to exist in the human realm.(Not our fault personally..but our responsibility collectively)
2) Gave us a way out of it through Christ. Another choice which you personally do not have to make. (Why rebel?)You have considered the "God" concept and found it lacking. You have thus adapted a human wisdom concept of collective responsibility.I will agree with human wisdom. We are individually responsible for our decisions in life as well as our choices.I will also agree that many Christians are none too bright.
We need to learn to grow up and think for ourselves.I still believe that God is alive, however. My choice to commune with Him as often as possible may be seen by outsiders as a contrived crutch.I often wonder why these outsiders think that by taking all responsibility upon themselves that they can reasonably take on a universe of uncertainty with nothing more to have faith in than their own evolutionary potential.I prefer worship of a Creator over mere biological adaptations within
(an evolving) creation. (conclusion: We both have a point. Humans need responsibility yet they also need communion with a living Creator.)This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-07-2005 08:11 AM

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If they O.D. at 1 a.m., that is on them and not on the parents. (Hey--you raise them as best as you can, right?)

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The flaw in your analogy is that God is an all-powerful, all loving parent while humans are limited by being human.If a child is 5 years old and they OD'ed at 1 AM the parents ARE very much responsible.Aren't we as ignorant infants compared to God?Also, if a human parent was all-powerful and all-loving, wouldn't they save their child from OD'ing at 1 AM if they could? Wouldn't they keep their child safe by force of will alone if they could?I would if I was a parent and I had that power.God doesn't, though.

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I often wonder why these outsiders think that by taking all responsibility upon themselves that they can reasonably take on a universe of uncertainty with nothing more to have faith in than their own evolutionary potential.

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Similarly, I think the inability to tolerate ambiguity and uncertainty is what leads people to a belief in God. It's easier in many ways.

maybe... However the flaw in YOUR analogy is that if we are the 5 year olds, we have the ability to "wish" our parents away...as if they did not exist.God...our loving parent...stands near and watches His rebellious 5 year old who wants a world without omnipotant parental authority. He is letting you attempt to grow up without Him. Lets see how far humanity gets with this one! Don't think He won't step back in again when we as a species fall flat on our frontal lobes!This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-07-2005 02:57 PM

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maybe... However the flaw in YOUR analogy is that if we are the 5 year olds, we have the ability to "wish" our parents away...as if they did not exist.

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Well, any involved, caring, effective parent would be quite apparent to their 5 year old. Even though the 5 year old may wish the parent away, he or she is not able to.And, some of those 5 year olds who don't wish their parents away, who cry out for them in their moments of greatest need, receive no answer, get no help.

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God...our loving parent...stands near and watches His rebellious 5 year old who wants a world without omnipotant parental authority.

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Or, God, our neglectful absentee parent, appears to not exist at all when his child really thinks about the state of the world, and begins to understand how humans think.

I theorize that God knows that some of His kids need to grow on their own...such as you have, Schraff. He is not neglecting anything...He is merely allowing you to ride the bike without His crutch training wheels....if my theory is right He will make Himself evident in your life at a later date. Until then, neither of us can comment except as to our feelings for Him or our indifference to Him.

Hi If, Yes, and the Eastern concept of ‘God’ is quite different as well. I find this area the most difficult area that students have difficulty in understanding. For western students to let go of this idea of the God of the Bible is extremely difficult, and they always seem to keep thinking of Brahma as essentially the same type of being as Yahweh. Although he didn’t use the exact words’ there is no such thing as God’, his teachings certainly negate the possibility of an eternal, unchanging, all-powerful being.The concept of impermanence certainly doesn’t allow for the God of the Bible to exist. But, you are right, he didn’t use these exact words, and he did say that pondering on God is not a worthwhile pastime as it will not lead you to enlightenment. He also said much the same about creation, which is why there is no creation myth in Buddhism.Buddha’s teachings do not allow for a creator God or a personal God either, there’s no eternal soul for example, and he said that searching for this God is futile, something that contradicts the Abrahamic religions’ teachings. So I was really just paraphrasing for him. One of the reasons why I considered following Mahayana Buddhism is that the teachings actually urge you to try things out for yourself, and that you should not just simply accept things in the way that some people here seem to do. I like this from the Kalama Sutra: "Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed
down for many generations.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
But when, after observation and analysis, you find anything that agrees with reason,
and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. Most of my negative comments about Christianity are made tongue in cheek, although I admit that the fundy brigade astound me with their ignorance and some comments to them are indeed genuine.I am not convinced that Christianity was that great a blessing on mankind when we consider the atrocities committed in its name. We can argue that it has been misused, but it still has to exist in the first place to be misused. Part of the problem is that no one can decide exactly what Christianity is and what it is a Christian should do to gain salvation. Apparently God is not the author of confusion, but after a near 2000 year debate, we have more denominations of Christianity than we have ever had before! With all these conflicts are we ever going to see Christian unity of beliefs?I also think that the people who take a literal view of the Bible make a mockery of it because they actually CHASE people away from the faith. I really cannot see where anyone would be converted by someone who is basically asking them to disconnect their brains. I can say, hand on heart, that every fundy that has posted here since I became a member has only reinforced my view that Christianity (I should say their type of Christianity) is for people who are scared to face reality and do not have the ability to accept that many things in the Bible have been shown to be untrue. This does not mean that the spiritual side of the Bible is untrue, the spiritual side can only be affirmed or denied, but to think that if there wasn’t a worldwide Flood then there wasn’t a resurrection is absurd.But, Christianity has produced some good things. There are some wonderful churches in Scotland for example, and there is a very nice one that is literally across the road from my house. Every morning when I open my blinds this church is staring me in the face, but it is s beautiful building, I need to post a pic of it sometime. Apparently, there is an American pastor there now, and most of the local congregation have now abandoned it for another church down in the village. My neighbour now goes to a church in the nearest big town because this pastor is one of those 6000 year old universe- literal flood type of pastor. It is now exclusively used by Americans, who arrive by the bus load. I agree 100%.It is much more likely that these tales of cruelty associated with God are purely didactic. The slaughter of Achan and his family is more likely to be a fiction that was invented as a deterrent rather than an historical event. Given that the Israelites had nothing to do with the destruction of Jericho then this is the most likely scenario. The atrocities associated with God reflect human literary invention, and as societies evolved a more moral based foundation, we can see how the atrocities associated with God in the Bible start to fade away. I would say that the journey from God being a barbarian in the Book of Genesis to God being a wonderful father in the gospels simply reflects the evolution of society rather than God feeling charitable.BrianPS, I seem to remember that Buddha hinted at the non-existence of Brahma during a conversation with a Brahmin, but I can't remember where I read it, does it ring a bell with you?