For those concerned with Free Speech (or Porn), it is time to get active.

No I'm not - I'm talking about a legal industry that has various shady elements that forces people to do things against their will. Now is that the fault of the industry or the people involved in that particular situation?Besides your anecdotal example from 30 odd years ago, what modern research can you bring to bear on this problem?I'm not saying that abuse does not occur but that's a straight forward law enforcement problem within the area of "crimes against the person" nothing to do with the inherent merits of the industry in this context.Do you have the same problems with girl on girl home-made pornography? Homosexual pornography?I don't see how your "dislike*" is a problem for the industry.* and mine - i don't actually like porn but for different reasons from you.

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Perhaps you aren't trotting out the old, discredited idea that pornography incites violence.

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Well, IIRC violent degrading porn does seem to cause more callous attitudes and acceptance of violent sexual degradation in viewers, but that nonviolent porn does not.I also seem to recall that watching porn makes many men less satisfied and more critical of their partner's body, and makes many women more critical of their own bodies.But this is just my recollection.

How does that counter what I said at all? Even if true, and maybe it was as I am not sure either way, that was when the industry was just coming out of illegality and productions cost some amount of money to make. By the Gods you even have that comment by me in your reply.Here it is again... To be sure I am definite that somewhere somebody is forcing someone to pose for some sexual imagery. But I am also sure that is not the majority and not even a small minority of the sex industry, especially the corporate giants at this point.And as it is people are forcing people to do all sorts of things by force somewhere and those other industries are not getting blamed for such acts. It is ridiculous to smear large groups with the activities of minorities.If that were the case I would start looking at Xians abusing children. There have been more cases of rape and murder coming out of Xian quarters than out of the porn biz... and that is a FACT.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

There's always love involved?Hmm, that's surprising.

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The fact that pornography has always existed is an equally bogus point. It has never been treated as legitimate and flaunted before the public as it is now, and justifed as a Right.

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Do you mean like it was treated as legitimate and important religious iconography thousands of years before your religion was invented?

Have you forgotten my posts to you already? Although true, is not complete and when fully stated does not work at all against what Knight said. The idea that porn, even violent porn, incites violence has been discredited.While it does increase callous attitudes and acceptance of violence in viewers, the effects were shown to be temporary and not affecting their personal behavior.The only viable connection seems to be the possibility that those already prone to violent behavior, using it to feed their already violent tendencies. And in that case it was seen that sex was not necessary at all, and that straight violence was enough.Here is an interesting anecdote. The argument has been that porn leads down a slippery slope from simple to violent and perverse. I live nearby a theater which is divided into several cinemas. One is for normal, kinda tame adult content, the second for harder and more perverse things (including full bestiality), and the third is for straight out S&M and really violent porn. People are free to wander between the cinemas as they wish.On going to this theater, which I have done on more than one occassion, the first theater is usually the most packed, sometimes tied with the second, but the third which is devoted to very violent sex is almost always empty. Guys move in and out of that very quickly, and usually only stay there to have quick anonymous sex with another guy and don't want to be seen doing it. They are pretty much guaranteed of that in the violent theater. I once saw a lady in there apparently enjoying watching girls getting beaten and raped. That was the only time I saw any guys stay in there for more than a few minutes on their way through... because the lady wanted to stay and watch. Again, the irony is that independents were moving to reduce the stereotypes which corporations by their very nature have to cater to in general. I mean there are plenty of niche market corporations for all sorts of body types, so nobody has to watch any porn involving a girl that is NOT the same body type as their partner, but independents were about real people... real looking people... showing how fun sex is.This legislation is going to crush independents and restore dominance of those that are forced by markets to deal in the most popular (by least common denominator) body types.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I was going to post those same kinds of things but figured they might be taboo at EvC. And anyway then Faith pointed out that those were insane societies that eventually crumbled so I realized she was right and posting such things would just promote further insanity.Thanks for the pic though. Snagged it.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

But that particular society hasn't crumbled, and while India has had some tough times moving towards industrialization they are currently doing pretty well as they enbrace education and technology.You're welcome for the pic. I hope they aren't taboo. I find them extremely stylized and symbolic so I hope they are not objectionable, any more than a Botticelli would be.

I'm not sure what you are arguing with. What exactly in those images contradicts anything I've said? Religious sex doesn't contradict the basic conservatism of sexual mores in a society, which characterizes Indian society too. However, religious sex is condemned in the Bible, and India's extreme poverty and class divisions and cow worship and millions of "deities" don't exactly describe a prosperous well ordered society. The West has been so prosperous because of our basic adherence to God's Law, including sexual propriety and respect. That's going now, that's my point. All that is going since the sixties, so I guess we can look forward to becoming some version of a third world country, if we continue to exist at all that is.

Maybe I'm wrong about how conservative India's basic sexual mores are. It is hard to know. Often those co-exist with extreme depravity as well. I was just reminded of the missionary to India, Amy Carmichael, who went to save children from lives of temple prostitution there, quite a common thing. Is this an admirable way of life? It seems to be the dominant view of this thread -- the more sexual freedom the better. Of course nobody here is going to condone this kind of abuse of children, but wherever sexual liberty is extolled, it's funny how much abuse one always finds connected with it.

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However, religious sex is condemned in the Bible, and India's extreme poverty and class divisions and cow worship and millions of "deities" don't exactly describe a prosperous well ordered society.

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They have fallen on hard times recently, since British colonization.But we have extreme poverty here in the states, and also class divisions.And why do you so arrogantly scoff at cow worship?You worship a book.

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The West has been so prosperous because of our basic adherence to God's Law, including sexual propriety and respect.

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Can you please explain to me how the Biblical practice of owning females and stoning them to death if they didn't cry out loud enough during their rape, or requiring them to marry their rapist, constitutes "respect"?And anyway, like I said, India is on the cusp of a great deal of prosperity. They are basically where we were about 100 years ago during the industrial revolution.

Hello, Faith.In message 56 you said:

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Carry on. I'm through here.

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In message 77 you said:

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NOW I'm through here.

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So, are you through yet?

They are actually just now on the verge of becoming prosperous THANKS TO British colonization, whatever its inequities. It did the nation a great service. That is the view at any rate of writer Dinesh D'Souza, who came here from India as a student.And even our worst poverty is riches by comparison with most of the rest of the world. You are quite wrong about that. We are wealthy even down to our poverty.

I do have a very bad habit of leaving and not leaving. Very vacillating. I apologize.

Hello, schrafinator.Doesn't non-explicit television, especially advertising, lead to the same dissatisfaction with one's and others' bodies? This is anectdotal, but I became much more satisfied with my appearance, and am less critical of others' appearances, when I quit watching TV.I'm not necessarily disputing your point as much a pointing out that the degradation of women and the cult of a narrow standard of beauty lies much, much deeper in our society.