Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,895 Year: 4,152/9,624 Month: 1,023/974 Week: 350/286 Day: 6/65 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   For those concerned with Free Speech (or Porn), it is time to get active.
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 304 (220393)
06-28-2005 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
06-28-2005 9:23 AM


Hi, Faith.
I don't think that you need to apologize; I just think it's kind of humorous. I hope I haven't offended you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 06-28-2005 9:23 AM Faith has not replied

dsv
Member (Idle past 4752 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 107 of 304 (220395)
06-28-2005 9:44 AM


A different thought
One thing Americans seem to do is jump to blame the industry. If you're fat, it must be the fast food industry's fault. Industries evolve for one reason and one reason only: demand. If we wake up tomorrow and everyone hates porn and has sex through a hole in the bed sheet, there would be a lot of porn execs looking for jobs (or releasing porn of bed sheet sex).
One issue I'm thinking of while following the thread is "what came first?"
Like any other business, to a certain extent the consumer has to drive the progression of the merchandise. New and increasingly more "interesting" pornography gets developed because the consumer base is showing that they get bored and move on.
The case might be made that it's the pornographer's fault or the consumer's fault, depending on your position about porn in general. Hard to say really.
The increased exposure and availability via internet must increase the need for new avenues of stimulation, but if there weren't enough eyeballs longing for the content it would not be produced -- it's a business.
If I produced some male-dominant woman-degrading content and lost half my members, you can bet I would be rethinking that angle.
My question is, can we really blame the industry?

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Tal, posted 06-28-2005 9:47 AM dsv has not replied
 Message 115 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 10:38 AM dsv has replied
 Message 143 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 1:44 PM dsv has not replied

Tal
Member (Idle past 5705 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 108 of 304 (220396)
06-28-2005 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by lfen
06-28-2005 12:35 AM


Re: Here we go again.
Ted Bundy was a sociopathic sexually deviant serial killer.
Yes, and according to him, he got that way through porn.
hat statement was made in a context. A context where Ted was continuing to be manipulative and insincere trying to at least delay the death penalty.
Wrong.
Ted Bundy acknowledged that he deserved the death penalty, even though there were anti-death penalty demonstrators outside his prison cell up until the moment of his execution. "I deserve the most extreme punishment society has," he said. "But I don't want to die, I kid you not."
Given what Ann Rule and Stephen Michaud have researched about Ted's past his statement about pornography was an attempt at shifting responsibility from himself on to others.
No, he was taking responsibility for his actions and telling people how he go to the place in his life where he wanted to kill people to satisfy his sexual urges (BTK).
I'm sure we'll be hearing about BTK's pornographic addiction soon.

"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..."
-Army Cadence
"A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future."
- General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by lfen, posted 06-28-2005 12:35 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 9:47 AM Tal has not replied
 Message 116 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 10:39 AM Tal has not replied
 Message 123 by lfen, posted 06-28-2005 11:36 AM Tal has not replied

Tal
Member (Idle past 5705 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 109 of 304 (220397)
06-28-2005 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by dsv
06-28-2005 9:44 AM


Re: A different thought
One thing Americans seem to do is jump to blame the industry. If you're fat, it must be the fast food industry's fault. Industries evolve for one reason and one reason only: demand. If we wake up tomorrow and everyone hates porn and has sex through a hole in the bed sheet, there would be a lot of porn execs looking for jobs (or releasing porn of bed sheet sex).
One issue I'm thinking of while following the thread is "what came first?"
Like any other business, to a certain extent the consumer has to drive the progression of the merchandise. New and increasingly more "interesting" pornography gets developed because the consumer base is showing that they get bored and move on.
The case might be made that it's the pornographer's fault or the consumer's fault, depending on your position about porn in general. Hard to say really.
The increased exposure and availability via internet must increase the need for new avenues of stimulation, but if there weren't enough eyeballs longing for the content it would not be produced -- it's a business.
If I produced some male-dominant woman-degrading content and lost half my members, you can bet I would be rethinking that angle.
My question is, can we really blame the industry?
No. A person is still responsible for their actions whether they kill someone, use pornography, or stuff 2 Bigmacs per day down their pie-holes.

"Some say freedom is free...but I beg to disagree. Some say freedom is won, through the barrel of a gun..."
-Army Cadence
"A good plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed at some indefinite point in the future."
- General George Patton Jr
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by dsv, posted 06-28-2005 9:44 AM dsv has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4156 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 110 of 304 (220398)
06-28-2005 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Tal
06-28-2005 9:44 AM


Re: Here we go again.
quote:
Yes, and according to him, he got that way through porn.
So you don't agree with individual responsibility? it's the fault of porn. So Drug-users who steal should be set free because the drugs made them do it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Tal, posted 06-28-2005 9:44 AM Tal has not replied

Slim Jim
Junior Member (Idle past 6272 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 05-06-2005


Message 111 of 304 (220400)
06-28-2005 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Silent H
06-28-2005 5:55 AM


Re: This is an interesting discussion
This will be my last rant about public key encryption and internet security in this thread. I'll do my best to make it understandable. (And apologies to those whom do not care for such techno-babble).
You are indeed correct that a proxy is worthless if an interested party already knows the identity of a specific individual and wishes to carry out electronic surveilence. Barring having physical access to that individual's computer, their best bet for network traffic analysis is by "sniffing" all traffic on the link from the individual's computer to their ISP. The question now becomes "what will they be able to analyze?"
If you communicate over the internet in an insecure an unprotected fashion, then every TCP segment (i.e. all chunks of data transmitted when surfing the net) that your computer sends and receives contains
  • the source IP address
  • the destination IP address
  • a sequence number (used for reconstituting data in the correct order and in case packets are lost/arrive out of order)
  • more bookkeeping information superfluous to this discussion
  • the actual application data (e.g. a chunk of HTML web page etc) you are interested in viewing/sending
Using the sequence numbers, a snooping observer can readily reconstruct all information that you are indeed sending and receiving. If you are under surveilence and viewing kiddie-porn you can expect the FBI to come crashing through your front door.
If, however, you are communicating over an encrypted connection then the snooping observer will no longer have raw application data to reconstruct. Without your private key, they will have to rely on brute-force number field sieving or elliptic curve factoring to decrypt the application data contained within each TCP packet.
If you are using a weak form of encryption then, the snooping observer will (with a little time and computing power) be able to decrypt and reconstruct the application data. Again, expect a visit from the FBI.
If you have used much stronger forms of encryption, then it becomes computationally infeasible for anyone to decrypt the application data.
I guess this begs the question - how infeasible is infeasible? Trying to decrypt data on a home PC may be computationally infeasible, but is it really infeasible for the boffins at the NSA with their distributed grids of supercomputers? The answer depends on the algorithm you use to encrypt your data, and the strength of the key used.
PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) is a freely available program implementing public key cryptography. It's been around for a while now, and provides a swarth of encryption algorithms (ElGamal, DSA, RSA, AES, 3DES, Blowfish, Twofish, CAST5, MD5, SHA-1, RIPE-MD-160, TIGER etc.) RSA is one of the more noted and secure algorithms. It is one of the algorithms that most banks, governments and the military currently use to encrypt data when electronically communicating. It is a very simple algorithm that at the same time is computationally infeasible to break:
1. select two very large prime numbers, p, q, such that p does not equal q.
2. compute n = pq
3. compute z = (p-1)(q-1)
4. compute e such that e and z are coprime
5. compute d such that ed-1 is exactly divisible by z
Now some message fragment m is encrypted to a value c using e and n; c is decrypted using d and n:
c = m^e mod n
m = c^d mod n
The infeasibility of breaking a message encrypted using the RSA algorithm fundamentally depends on the size of p and q. If n = pq is less than 256 bits (i.e. n < 2^256), a message can be broken in a few hours on a modern PC; if n is less then 512 bits, a message can be broken by a few hundred supercomputers in a distributed computing network; if n is 1024 bits or more is it currently unbreakable using the currently available technology in the world (it would take ~7000000 times as long as 512 bits); if n is 4096 bits or more, then all world's current and future computational power combined will be insufficient to break the encryption before the Sun burns out.
Consider the fact that most banks use RSA-1024 bit encryption for financial transactions, the US government uses RSA-2048 bit encryption for highly sensitive communications, and freely available PGP programs offer RSA-4096 bit encryption for your home PC.
There is also another form of technology that I am currently involved in called circuit-based low-latency anomymous communication services, or second-generation onion routing. In this computing paradigm all network communication is coordinated over a distributed network sharing perfect forward secrecy, integrity checking, and location-hidden services. This means that all communication is distributed over the network so that no single point can link a packet to its destination. No computer in such a network sees more than one router ahead; neither a compromised server nor a snooping observer can perform traffic analysis in order to determine the source, destination or payload of a TCP packet.
One final point. It may seem surprising that with this technology publically and freely available, there are any successful internet child pornagraphy investigations. In some respects it is surprising. But I'm relieved that some paedophiles and crooks tend not to be technically savvy of this technology. I'm also relieved that others tend to be compulsive enough to send just one more picture to that undercover FBI agent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 5:55 AM Silent H has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 112 of 304 (220404)
06-28-2005 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
06-28-2005 8:47 AM


But that particular society hasn't crumbled
Hasn't it? Hasn't it really? Oh wait were we talking about facts or Faith?
I hope they aren't taboo. I find them extremely stylized and symbolic so I hope they are not objectionable, any more than a Botticelli would be.
I find it sort of funny that patently graphic sexual activity gets a reprieve by being extremely stylized and symbolic, How does accurate and representational compromise an artwork's integrity, or make it less a piece of art?
In addition, my guess is if I quickly did a recreation of that piece using images of actual people, it would be deemed bad for the site.
Heheheh... I'm not blaming you for this arbitrary antisex distinction, just pointing out its wild arbitrariness.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 06-28-2005 8:47 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 10:26 AM Silent H has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4156 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 113 of 304 (220407)
06-28-2005 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Silent H
06-28-2005 10:17 AM


A summary
yes it's strange how the natural act is wrong but if I give the guy an animal's head it becomes art
Trying to get back to our main discussion - the following reasons have been given in support of this bill (I say support but I've not actually noticed much discussion of the actual bill from the "pros":
quote:
* Porn is just plain bad - it causes society to crumble, children can see it
* Porn turns people into murderers/sex perverts - speaks for itself
* Some porn is made by people who are forced - speaks for itself
* Porn is against the intent of the founding fathers - speaks for itself
Have I missed any?
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 10:26 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 10:17 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Dr Jack, posted 06-28-2005 10:30 AM CK has not replied
 Message 125 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 11:49 AM CK has not replied

Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 114 of 304 (220408)
06-28-2005 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by CK
06-28-2005 10:26 AM


Re: A summary
Which, in essence, implies that the supporters believe the end justifies the means. That, in itself, is frightening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 10:26 AM CK has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 304 (220409)
06-28-2005 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by dsv
06-28-2005 9:44 AM


Re: A different thought
One thing Americans seem to do is jump to blame the industry
This is a special case, and I will tell you why it is a special case. The main theme of hardcore heterosexual porn is "I am a woman. I want to be degraded." There is a link between that idea and the possibility of real enslavement. Most people do not want to be degraded, but they can be forced to act as though they do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by dsv, posted 06-28-2005 9:44 AM dsv has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by CK, posted 06-28-2005 10:40 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 118 by Silent H, posted 06-28-2005 10:48 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 119 by dsv, posted 06-28-2005 10:52 AM robinrohan has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 116 of 304 (220410)
06-28-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Tal
06-28-2005 9:44 AM


Re: Here we go again.
I'm sure we'll be hearing about BTK's pornographic addiction soon.
But will it be as big as his Xian literature addiction?
As I've already posted to you and you have ignored, the story is out that BTK was a very active member in the misogynist, violent world of Xian literature. Such literature is basically antisexual which would explain his sexual problems and inability to deal with others in a normal sexual manner. That is to say having enjoyable sex with another person, instead of masturbating over their corpses.
He was not only heavily addicted to such literature but was reaching a high profile leadership position amongst other Xian literature abusers. Such leaders and addicts have been responsible for many rapes and murders, including children, in recent years. This stands in stark contrast to leaders and users of literature with normal and healthy sexual content such as Playboy or Seymour Butts.
Don't you see some obvious connection when a person is so mired in the filth and violence of Biblical literature and they then go on to conduct the same form of massacres and desecrations of the human body as seen in that literature?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Tal, posted 06-28-2005 9:44 AM Tal has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4156 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 117 of 304 (220411)
06-28-2005 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by robinrohan
06-28-2005 10:38 AM


Re: A different thought
quote:
The main theme of hardcore heterosexual porn is "I am a woman. I want to be degraded."
Can you cite examples from movies that you have watched that confirm this? Just the title of the movie and some detail about the actual scene would be fine. Can you just justify the claim that it's the "main theme".
edit: and it occurs to me, by hetrosexual you mean "male", my understanding is that one of the biggest growth areas is the production of porn by Women for women (which seems to me to be a return to some of the higher value productions of the 1970s - films that actually had a story).
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 10:49 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 10:38 AM robinrohan has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 118 of 304 (220412)
06-28-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by robinrohan
06-28-2005 10:38 AM


Re: A different thought
The main theme of hardcore heterosexual porn is "I am a woman. I want to be degraded." There is a link between that idea and the possibility of real enslavement.
1) How much porn do you actually view, and so how did you reach this quantitative and qualitative conclusion?
2) How is that any different than nonsexually graphic content with the same message?
3) How do most mainstream nonsexually graphic pieces of entertainment not fall into that same category... though I'd extend that to "I am human. I want to be degraded"?
Most reality shows and contests (like Fear Factor) are based on willing human degradation. Most sitcoms are based on degradation. Almost all talk shows are based on human degradation (ala Jerry Springer).
In other words humans like to see degradation and there are people willing to be degraded for money, or free! It is very popular in general. I am uncertain why stuff with sexual content changes it into a "special case".
I might also add that Xianity is basically one misogynist comment after another, when it does address women. They are offered as bait to rapists and dutiful mistresses are the ones who get raped and mutilated (and this is by good guys). So where does one of the prime religions come out smelling any rosier? If anything porn is better as it is FANTASY. Religion passes itself off as reality that people should follow.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 10:38 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 12:34 PM Silent H has replied

dsv
Member (Idle past 4752 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 119 of 304 (220414)
06-28-2005 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by robinrohan
06-28-2005 10:38 AM


Re: A different thought
Most people do not want to be degraded, but they can be forced to act as though they do.
Forced? Forcing women to have sex is called rape, that's already illegal last time I checked. What does that have to do with being a porn actress as a profession? Don't sell the actresses short on credit too soon.
Plus, some people DO want to be degraded, hence there is a market for that type of pornography from BOTH sides -- male and female.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 10:38 AM robinrohan has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 304 (220415)
06-28-2005 10:52 AM


I really am interested in bringing up holmes' original point.
The stated purpose of the record-keeping law is to protect children who may be working in the porn industry. I couldn't wade far enough into the legalese before my eyes started crossing, but people who have more patience than I have stated that another claim is to prevent illegal aliens from working in the porn industry (although it isn't clear to me if the suspicion is that the US porn industry is a major contributor to illegal immigration, or whether it is felt that the jobs of American porn actors need protection). So far, those that have expressed an explicit desire to suppress pornography have not really addressed these points.
1) Is the actual or possible use of minors in pornography really a great enough problem that justifies this law?
2) Is the actual or possible use of undocumented aliens in pornography really such a great problem that justifies this law?
3) Why aren't the same child-protection laws and immigration laws that are used in other industries sufficient for the pornography industry?
4) robinrohan is the only one, so far, to bring up a point that is even remotely related to the issue of these laws: namely, the possible use of women in pornography against their will. Is this a widespread problem? If so, how will these record-keeping laws help resolve this problem?
5) Or is it that pornography such a great evil that any and all methods must be used to eliminate it, even if those methods use deception and blatant hypocrisy?
Edited to correct a typo.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 28-Jun-2005 03:26 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by robinrohan, posted 06-28-2005 12:47 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024