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Author Topic:   Terrorism in London
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 139 of 313 (222822)
07-09-2005 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Chiroptera
07-09-2005 12:16 PM


Re: Muslim dissent
Again, read tehari, and almost any other ME scholar of note.
Otherwise, neither of us has anyhting new to add to this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Chiroptera, posted 07-09-2005 12:16 PM Chiroptera has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 140 of 313 (222823)
07-09-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by crashfrog
07-09-2005 12:20 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
I do not see everything about bush in a positive light. His deficit spending is nuts. His conficence gthat faith based charities will provide the best social services is questionable. I have other issues as well. On islamism, he is absolutely right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 12:20 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 12:44 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 152 of 313 (222865)
07-09-2005 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Chiroptera
07-09-2005 12:30 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
It is you who asserts a theory devoid of evidence, not me.
As for christian fundamentalists wanting to take over the world...They understand that their faith says they must covert people, and in no way demands muder, subjugation and the rule of the world under a Christian authority. Yes, the ultimate aim is for all to be Christian, as Islam's ultimate aim is for all to be Muslim. But the means of achieving that is hugely different. One is through conversion and peace, the other is through the sword. That is why despite that the most powerful nations are christian, we don't see wars for that purpose. Nor do we see Christians flying airplanes into buildings, acting as suicide bombers, etc.
If you read the bible, there is simply no call to murder infidels. But the Koran is clear on that point. If you read the Koran, especially the war verses, you will be as shocked as was I...and i mean that in contrast to the bibles. There, truly, is no comparison. Consider this, if jesus, like Mohammed, married many wives including a 9 year old he impregnated when she was 10, led armies into battle and killed many himself, kept slaves himself, and so on, imagine how different Christianity would be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Chiroptera, posted 07-09-2005 12:30 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Meeb, posted 07-09-2005 8:51 PM CanadianSteve has replied
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 07-09-2005 9:01 PM CanadianSteve has not replied
 Message 178 by Brian, posted 07-10-2005 4:52 AM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 153 of 313 (222866)
07-09-2005 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
07-09-2005 12:36 PM


Re: What is the connection?
You can examine whatever you want, but there is nothing either of us can say that will persuade the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 07-09-2005 12:36 PM jar has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 154 of 313 (222867)
07-09-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by crashfrog
07-09-2005 12:44 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
I appreciate your desire to continue, but I seriously doubt that either of us will convince the other of anything.
Most of the deficit is due to tax reductions and spending increases aside from iraq. Insofar as Iraq is a factor, then it is necessary, just as deficit sending to fight the Nazis was necessary. Note that when the US first attacked the nazis it was not germany itself, but North Africa. You battle where you must in oursuit of your final aims. As i wrote to begin this entire thread, Hussein was not an islamist, but there were many reasons to for the 2nd stage of the war on Islamism to be there. And as i also said, trmendous good has come of it, and the seeds of an islamic democratic revolution have taken root.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 12:44 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 11:24 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 155 of 313 (222869)
07-09-2005 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Silent H
07-09-2005 4:52 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
If you are one of the few in oppostion to teh war, but not in general opposition to Bush and Republicans, then i was wrong in that assumption.
As for rebuttals, they can go on forever. Thus, as we have reached a dead end, you're welcome to that last word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Silent H, posted 07-09-2005 4:52 PM Silent H has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 157 of 313 (222874)
07-09-2005 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Meeb
07-09-2005 8:51 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
There is simply no question that Christians have in the name of the faith done grievious wrong. But their actions cannot be justified by the faith. what they did was clearly contrary to what jesus preached. In contrast, the actions of the Islamists are entirely consistent with what Mohammed preached. Christians could become democratic and still be true Christians faithful to the letter of the faith. Muslims will have to go into collective denial of their faith in order to be democratic. And they will, sooner or later 9(and maybe sooner thanks to Bush) because democracy innately appeals to human nature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Meeb, posted 07-09-2005 8:51 PM Meeb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Meeb, posted 07-09-2005 9:06 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 158 of 313 (222875)
07-09-2005 8:59 PM


Comment from tehari on the US and Iraq
As I posted before, Amir tehari is an iranian Muslim, who is, perhaps, the most prolific writer on the ME. He is a passionate democrat, who fervently wants to see democracy come to the Islmaic world. Here is a recent column of his:
What Business Does the U.S. Have in Iraq?
By Amir Taheri
Gulf News | July 8, 2005
The other day, it was the first anniversary of the transfer of sovereignty in Iraq. As expected, opponents of the war seized the opportunity to add a fresh coat of gloom to the picture they paint of the situation there.
The doomsters insist the United States and its allies, including the overwhelming majority of the Iraqi people who have just formed their first democratically elected government, are losing and the terrorists, euphemistically labelled "insurgents" are winning. The problem is these doomsters do not offer any standard for success against which the performance of the U.S.-led coalition and the Iraqi people could be measured.
When it comes to offering a strategy for coping with this supposed failure, all that they have to offer is a time-table for U.S. military withdrawal.
The only rational way to approach this issue is to ask: What business does the United States have in Iraq? If we assume it has no business, a perfectly legitimate position, we should be asking not for a time-table but immediate withdrawal. But if we assume the United States is in Iraq on some business then, surely, we cannot talk of withdrawal in abstraction. Also, any success or failure could then be measured against the goals of that business. Thus the real debate concerns the nature of the business the United States may have in Iraq and the best ways of accomplishing it.
Did the United States go to Iraq to seize oil resources and bring oil prices down? If yes, then with oil prices pegged at $60 (Dh220) per barrel compared to $18 (Dh66) before the war, it has failed and better bring its troops back immediately.
Or did the United States go to Iraq only to topple Saddam Hussain and to finish the job which Bush Senior had left unfinished? If that is the case, the United States has succeeded because Saddam and almost all his henchmen are under lock and key. Again, the United States can declare that it achieved its goal and bring its soldiers home.
President George W. Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair, however, claim the U.S.-led coalition is in Iraq on an altogether more ambitious mission, of which the toppling of Saddam Hussain was only the first phase.
That mission is aimed at transforming Iraq from a despotic system into a vibrant democracy. The plan is a part of a broader strategy to bring the Middle East into the global political and economic mainstream.
The U.S.-led intervention in Iraq and earlier in Afghanistan, however, is not the result of starry-eyed altruism but the fruit of enlightened self-interest. Today, the single deadliest threat to the U.S. national security comes from Islamist terrorism which, although it has sympathisers in the West, uses the Middle East as its main support base. Terrorism cannot be defeated and eventually uprooted unless it is deprived of the swamps of despotism in which it breeds like deadly mosquitoes.
The United States and its allies are beginning to abandon the 60-year or so policy of allying themselves with Arab despots in exchange for cheap oil. The U.S.-led interventions in both Afghanistan and Iraq symbolised that change. Even though the United States and its allies have not fully shifted their weight away from despotic regimes and in favour of pro-democracy forces in the region, the Middle East is already abuzz with messages of change and reform.
If we assume that the US-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were part of such a grand strategy we will then have something with which to measure success and failure.
Let us see how this works in the case of Iraq.
Four phases
The Iraq mission could be seen in four phases: liberation, pacification, reconstruction and democratisation. These phases should not be considered consequentially. Rather they should be seen as parallel tracks along which movements of different rhythm and tempo takes place.
The first phase liberation has been completed in the physical sense. The Ba'athist regime and its machinery of repression have been shattered, never again to be rebuilt. In a broader sense, however, it may take generations before the people of Iraq can liberate their souls from decades of life under the worst tyranny seen since the Second World War.
The second phase pacification has also been largely accomplished. Barring common criminality partly due to lack of proper policing, most of Iraq is peaceful. The terrorists do not hold any territory, even at night. Over the past year, specially since the general election of January 30, the insurgents have been losing support even in the Jazirah region, known as the Sunni Triangle. They have also failed to develop a political leadership to challenge the leadership that emerged from Iraq's first free elections. Nor has the insurgency developed any clear political demands. This partly explains why it is increasingly depending on "holy warriors" from other Arab countries.
The full pacification of Iraq, in the sense of not having a single car bomb, may not come anytime soon. No Arab country is in such a felicitous state. In this context, the experience of Algeria is of importance. The war that the Algerian state has waged against Islamist terror gangs for the past 13 years has claimed almost a quarter of a million lives. It took Egypt 20 years and over 30,000 lives to crush the Islamofascists.
The third phase reconstruction has been the least successful. Despite efforts on a heroic scale, the U.S.-led coalition gets no more than a 'C,' largely due to bureaucratic constraints, confused planning and corruption. But reconstruction, too, is a long-term effort and Iraq may need years to become a modern economy.
The fourth phase democratization is an undeniable success. We have already mentioned the general, provincial and municipal elections. But a more important, and lesser known, fact is the culture of democracy is beginning to strike roots in Iraq. This can be seen in the growth of the new privately-owned media, and constant improvement in its quality, and the emergence of Western-style political parties. Again, all this may take decades before Iraq becomes a truly democratic society as opposed to a despotic one with some trappings of democracy.
Tactically, the enemies of this grand strategy, that is to say the Islamofascists and their Baathist and Khomeinist allies, remain deadly and dangerous. As in other Arab countries they may continue to wreak havoc in Iraq for some time yet. Strategically, however, their back has been broken by the combined force of American military power and the Iraqi people's resolve to shake-off tyranny.
The Iraq enterprise has been and remains a strategic success for the United States, its Iraqi and other allies and for all those who wish the Middle East democratised. But there is still much unfinished business. This is no reason to cut and run.
So when should the U.S.-led coalition withdraw? The answer has been there all along: when the current political process in Iraq produces a new elected government based on a new democratic constitution ratified in a popular referendum.
Such a government, speaking for the whole Iraqi people, could then, if it so wishes, demand an end to the coalition's military presence.
Such a time-table takes us into the spring of next year or, as Iraq's Prime Minister Ebhraim Al Jaafari said in London the other day, early 2007. Until then it would be irresponsible to cast doubts on the resolve either of the United States or of the new Iraqi leadership to stay the course.

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 163 of 313 (222884)
07-09-2005 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Meeb
07-09-2005 9:06 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
Yes to both.
If you have read the Koran, you know what I mean. If you haven't read it, you will be shocked at the war verses. Not that Sharia law - Allah's law, which the Islamists intend to be the one and one law for all mankind - isn't shocking too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Meeb, posted 07-09-2005 9:06 PM Meeb has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Chiroptera, posted 07-09-2005 9:35 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 167 of 313 (222888)
07-09-2005 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Chiroptera
07-09-2005 9:35 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
I don't know how one can forget the incredible violence therein. Here are some examples, of which there are many more.
Islamic Tolerance
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)
I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. (Koran 98:1-8)
A Muslim may not be killed if he kills a non-Muslim (Al Bukhari Vol 9:50)
Fight against those who believe not in Allah, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth [Islam], until they are subdued. (Surat At-Taubah 9:29)
Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.
Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)
(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat. (Koran 69:30-37)
Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed... fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme" (Sura 2:91-93).
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk." [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]
(As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah; and these are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide. 3.116
Fight against those who believe not in Allah, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth [Islam], until they are subdued.
Surat At-Taubah 9:29
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. (Koran 2: 98)
Allah plots against unbelievers. (The Morning Star: 15)
Allah has cursed them (the Jews) on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe. (Koran 2:88)
There is disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers. (Koran 2:90)
Mohammed said, “The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them.” (Mishkat Al Masabih Sh.M. Ashraf pp.147, 721, 810-11, 1130)
[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan (Satan). Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
[4:101] ...surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.
[4:102] ...surely Allah has prepared a disgraceful chastisement for the unbelievers.
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
[48:29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves
[4.92] Anyone who kills a believer intentionally will have his reward in hell, to remain there. God will be angry with him and curse him, and prepare awful torment for him. (Only applies to believers)
[9.73] O Prophet! strive hard [make war] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
Abu Bakr, the first Caliph, is reported as saying in the Hadith: "I have been ordered to fight the people until they profess that there is no god but God and that Mohammad is the messenger of God"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Chiroptera, posted 07-09-2005 9:35 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Chiroptera, posted 07-10-2005 12:19 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 169 of 313 (222896)
07-09-2005 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
07-09-2005 10:17 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
It is true that the Jews were ordered by G-d to kill an entire people. However, that was a one time event, in one specific place, with no future implication. In contrast, Allah in the Koran demands that infidels be slayed forever until all the world is subdued by islam and controlled by it. It is an open ended command.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 07-09-2005 10:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 07-09-2005 10:32 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 171 of 313 (222899)
07-09-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Chiroptera
07-09-2005 9:35 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
What strikes me about the Koran is that its tone and its message take us backward in time, to an age when faith was about power alone. It is about 'submission' to G-d, more or less like submission to idols or primitive notions of deity, rather than the much more sophisticated relationship with G-d, moral obligations and personal responsibility for choices of judaism and Christianity. And, of course, there's the calls to kill and kill and kill, subjugate, conquer, enslave...all, again, so primitive.
Mind you, not all the koran is like that, not at all. But the more benevolent and wise passages pre-date the others. According the doctrine, where there is a conflcit between passages, the later ones supercede4 and replace the earlier ones. As mohammed gained power and armies, the koran changes from an attempt at peace, wisdom and tolerance to one of glorified religious imperialism. It is not for nothing that islam spread by teh sword immediately after its birth. It began in what is now Saudi Arabia. before long, the Muslims had conquered and displaced the jews and Christians in israel and elsewhere. A few centuries later islam had conquered most of spain, and, a few centuries later, made it to the gates of Vienna...by the sword.
There is a reason why democracy didn't come to Islamic lands first. There is a reason why the islamists state that democracy is evil: rule of man by man, instead of by Allah 9according to sharia law.
But democracy and human nature are simply too aligned for the islamic world not to take it. It will, and peace will then be the reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Chiroptera, posted 07-09-2005 9:35 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Ooook!, posted 07-10-2005 5:27 AM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 176 of 313 (222906)
07-10-2005 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by crashfrog
07-09-2005 11:24 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
You're impolite and belligerent. There is no reason to continue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 11:24 PM crashfrog has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 184 of 313 (222935)
07-10-2005 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Brian
07-10-2005 4:52 AM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
There is no rational overall comparison between the two. First, as I said, in the few instances in the OT where Jews are commanded to kill others - and there's really only one example (that i can think of) where a whole people are the target), there is specific instruction as a one time event. The Koran orders muslims, all Muslims, forever and ever to kill, kill, kill until all the world is Islamic. That is a order to war into the endless future, and it is exactly what the islamists cite as their authority for their actions.
To argue that jesus was gay is truly to be stretching. But even it were true, one can hardly compare one very vague passage with the explicit polygamy of Mohammed and that he has a 9 year old wife (I think he didn't have sex with her one one year - but I may be wrong).
To say Jesus didn't have slaves because he couldn't afford one is to be stretching, not only because he disavowed material wealth, but because it is obvious that slavery is entirely inconsistent with his message, yet a theme in Moghameed's - who even gives explicit instructions on when to take slaves and how to treat them.
And even if one wants to take in account the times in which the books were written - and that really isn't relevant in that today's followers take them as universal and non temporal - the Koran is, obviously and overwhlemingly, of a time that predates the bibles despite being written afterwards.
You may wish to be fair, but truth cannot be ignored in that effort, especially when truth explains why islamism is a force, and explains why democracy sas been, and continues to be, so resisted in so much of the Islamic world (while concurrently taking foot in other non western civilizations, such as Asian ones - except islamic Asian ones).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Brian, posted 07-10-2005 4:52 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by crashfrog, posted 07-10-2005 11:47 AM CanadianSteve has not replied
 Message 228 by Brian, posted 07-11-2005 11:33 AM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6502 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 186 of 313 (222937)
07-10-2005 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Ooook!
07-10-2005 5:27 AM


Re: Someone famous once said...
As i wrote before, the Christian world assuredly has done great, great evil. But those actions were in opposition to the faith. In contrast, much of the evil committed by the islamic world is consistent, even ordered by, the faith. That is why one could evolve beyond that and become democracies, whereas the other has not evolved beyond that and has resisted democracy. That doesn't mean the Islamic world won't become democratic and peaceful. It will. But only because the Christian world led the way, and even had to keep the imperialism of islam under control. Moreover, the Islamic wiorld will become democratic despite the faith through collective denial of it War Verses message.
That there are some Christians who would pervert democracy may well be true, but irrelevant. The Christian world, as a whole, developed liberal democracy, and the Islamic world, despite many individuals who favoured it, did not...and only ultimately will because the Christian world led the way.
We live in an age of moral equiavlence and relatvism. ironically, they evolved one where they could, in western liberal democracies. Theya re borne of peoples wanting to be fair and tolerant and understanding of others individually and as a whole. But that movement went too far, to the point where we lost the ability to see truth when it is unpleasant and defies our good will. Christianity is, at its very heart and soul, a message of peace (and a demand to believe, at risk of hell). Islam is, at its very heart, a message of submission and war until all the world submits to the faith and its religious law, Sharia, to be ruled on Earth inaccordance thereof by an isalmic caliphae. That may be ugly, but it's also the truth.
Not that islam won't come to be interpreted differently, consistent with democracy. But Muslims will go into collective denial as to that major theme in order to become democratic. Christians and Jews never had to do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Ooook!, posted 07-10-2005 5:27 AM Ooook! has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 204 by Ooook!, posted 07-10-2005 6:20 PM CanadianSteve has replied

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