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Author Topic:   Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 297 (240734)
09-05-2005 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by berberry
09-05-2005 9:27 PM


Re: My nomination for Greatest TV Editorial Ever!
A somewhat better quality video of Keith's commentary (and one which you can save to your hard drive and email to all your friends and neighbors) is availabe at Crooks & Liars.


"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005
This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by berberry, posted 09-05-2005 9:27 PM berberry has not yet responded

Ben!
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 77 of 297 (240749)
09-06-2005 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by berberry
09-05-2005 9:27 PM


Re: My nomination for Greatest TV Editorial Ever!
Well, I remember Mr. Olbermann from his days at ESPN, and I gotta say...

Wow. That was really well-said.

Thanks for the link berberry.

Ben


I don't want a large Farva, I want a goddamn liter-a-cola.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by berberry, posted 09-05-2005 9:27 PM berberry has not yet responded

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2103 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 78 of 297 (240750)
09-06-2005 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by arachnophilia
09-05-2005 10:18 PM


Re: Hurricane Ivan
Here`s a script which was followed almost to the letter

http://www.nola.com/washingaway/thebigone_1.html

Now I hear alligators are crawling into the submerged houses. Hope no one tries wading through the area. Also heard a huge Navy ship has been offshore with a built-in hospital and desalination plant, but not ordered to NO.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by arachnophilia, posted 09-05-2005 10:18 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 2034 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 79 of 297 (240756)
09-06-2005 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by crashfrog
09-05-2005 8:34 PM


Re: FEMA
They knew it was going to happen. They knew what it would do not only to NO, but to our oil-based economy. They knew how much it was going to cost us to prepare and how much it would cost to not prepare. By not spending the former they've forced us to spend the latter. How is that a defensible action?

And who is “they”? It's always about "them", never "us". Stop and consider for a moment if you can. Where was the Democratic Senator or any Democratic leader who had access to the same information regarding the levee situation and could advocate for a multi-billion dollar, multi year project for south Louisiana?

I really don't want to keep bringing up the money and the politics side of it but your implication is that the administration knew about this and deliberatly ignored the situation. It wasn't ignored, the issue had been around for many years. There are numerous books written about the levees, but it wasn't going to happen because it wasn't a political reality.

Why weren’t the liberals in this country pushing the importance of New Orleans and how important NO is to our so called "oil-based economy" as you put it? Because that would require support of an oil-based issue, funding billions of dollars for all those oil companies in south Louisiana. That's not something a liberal would do.

The Bush administration would know they couldn't push that forward. Their ties to big oil, Haliburon, etc. There is no way the president or congress would, even with majority Republicans, stand against the Dems attack on an appropriations bill for levee repair. They would know that the Dems would successfully kill the bill in the media by claiming it to be an appropriations bill for big oil).

That's why it didn't happen.

But even if you put aside politics, surely someone would have this info at the New York times editorial staff? Why weren’t there any liberals in the news corp asking the administration about NO during news conferences? Why? Why wasn’t Olbermann rhetorically asking the administration about NO before the storm hit? Wasn't he interested in the status of pre-storm planning? Why didn’t Olberman or someone at his organization know that a Cat 5 storm would destroy NO?

When they were showing the folks lined up to get into the Superdome, why weren't the reporters asking if the folks had brought enough food and water for several days?

Can't we and "they" be "us" on this one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by crashfrog, posted 09-05-2005 8:34 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by berberry, posted 09-06-2005 3:15 AM Monk has not yet responded
 Message 81 by Silent H, posted 09-06-2005 5:47 AM Monk has not yet responded
 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 7:18 AM Monk has not yet responded

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 297 (240758)
09-06-2005 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Monk
09-06-2005 2:16 AM


Re: FEMA
Whether it's 'we' or 'they' is really beside the point in this situation. New Orleans was not a direct hit and the storm was a cat 4 not a cat 5. The storm made landfall at Waveland MS, which put NO on the west side. Surely, the threat of a cat 5 still exists and still SHOULD be dealt with, as you seem to be pointing out and as I would agree.

But the situation as we have it is much worse than it might have been had the maintenance of the levee system continued under the Bush administration. The fact is that every president since Johnson has provided funding in the budget for the maintenance of the existing levees. There've been a number of unsuccessful proposals to beef up the levee so that it could withstand an even stronger storm, but as it is simple maintenance might have prevented the breach that occurred, especially when you considered that the levee held until after the blow. The democratic senator from Louisiana, Mary Landreau, did in fact plead with republican leaders to keep funding the levee maintenance, but it was dropped.

That said, the levee situation is separate from the issue of the people holed up in the Superdome and the Convention Center. None of those people drowned, but some of them (and we don't yet know how many) did die from dehydration and lack of medical attention. We now know that FEMA turned back a convoy of Wal*Mart trucks carrying water for those people as early as Tuesday, and also refused the service of a M*A*S*H ship that was nearby and prepared to dock at New Orleans.

We might argue over how responsible George Bush is for the disaster at the Convention Center and the Superdome, but the responsibility of Michael Brown and Michael Chertoff is beyond dispute. Brown is utterly incapable of dealing with anything beyond a minor thundershower, and by his own admission Chertoff gets his information about disasters from newspapers. Those two blithering dolts have no business being in charge of anything.

If it's democrats you want to blame, there's plenty to go around in that party too. You can start with the mayor of New Orleans, who by the way was a republican until he decided to run for that office. He's the one who made the survivors at the Superdomw stand back and wait while the wealthy guests at the Hyatt Hotel boarded buses to get the hell out of town.


"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Monk, posted 09-06-2005 2:16 AM Monk has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Silent H, posted 09-06-2005 5:49 AM berberry has responded

Silent H
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 81 of 297 (240769)
09-06-2005 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Monk
09-06-2005 2:16 AM


Re: FEMA
Again the unusual defense of Reps and Bush. Hey I agree that there were a host of issues that were missed by Dems as much as Reps, but that does not magically let the Reps (who are responsible) of the hook.

The Bush administration would know they couldn't push that forward. Their ties to big oil, Haliburon, etc. There is no way the president or congress would, even with majority Republicans, stand against the Dems attack on an appropriations bill for levee repair. They would know that the Dems would successfully kill the bill in the media by claiming it to be an appropriations bill for big oil).

This seems to be BS. How could the Dems stop it? You say they could go to the media and say something? Say what? What on earth have they said, or could they say, that would change a majority Rep vote in Congress?

That is on top of the fact that there would be no reason for Dems (at the very least within that state) to turn it down or vocally advocate against it. That would be money and protection for them!

But even if you put aside politics, surely someone would have this info at the New York times editorial staff? Why weren’t there any liberals in the news corp asking the administration about NO during news conferences? Why?

Could it be that its because the media has been so passive in recent years, afraid to touch this administration for fear of reprisals, that it was unwilling to ask questions about it?

Could it be that news has become more or less infotainment anyway, and so the hurricane was not a real issue until it hit? But in contrast to your statement, I did hear people asking about resources at the dome... unfortunately not to anyone important and that could answer the questions definitively.

Can't we and "they" be "us" on this one?

All political spectrums get hit on this. However that should not make it as everyone in the same boat. This means there were a lot of ineffectual people and systems in place. The people and systems need to be identified and removed.

The person who was in the white house, should be held responsible for the incredible lack of foresight and management coming from that sector. The sooner you can admit that, and place blame as it falls there, the more real your position will seem.

Otherwise it looks like you are saying that because some Dems did some bad things some Reps should get away with doing some bad things.

How about for once, we don't allow people and systems that do bad things, from getting away with it?

(AbE: I should add a note about the "political realities" you mentioned. It was the Republicans during the 1990's which drove and created the atmosphere where any additional spending measures were derided.

The Dems ended up appeasing Rep demands along this line and over their own longheld programs, including medicince, welfare, and social security. Any attempt on their part to initiate new programs was labelled "tax and spend". Remember that phrase Monk? Tax and Spend Democrats?

While I agreed with reps regarding balancing the budget, as well as cutting the pork out of the budget, the idea of no new programs or initiatives (beyond military) as well as cutting necessary ones, was backwards and prevented any real discussion of something as massive as a program to prevent coastal and river flooding.

So technically speaking, if you want to discuss partisan issues, it really was the majority of Reps which constitute the "they", even with respect to the political reality of not fixing NOs levee system.

It seems you are now trying to argue that Democrats are not Tax and Spend at all. Interesting and convenient reversal of characterization.)

This message has been edited by holmes, 09-06-2005 06:23 AM


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Monk, posted 09-06-2005 2:16 AM Monk has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by nwr, posted 09-06-2005 8:24 AM Silent H has not yet responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 82 of 297 (240771)
09-06-2005 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by berberry
09-06-2005 3:15 AM


Re: FEMA
Berb, did you see/hear that Barbara Bush said that many of the people were unfortunates (poor) anyway, and so they are doing all right through this (emergency relief and all)?


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by berberry, posted 09-06-2005 3:15 AM berberry has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 7:29 AM Silent H has responded
 Message 87 by berberry, posted 09-06-2005 8:44 AM Silent H has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 297 (240773)
09-06-2005 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Monk
09-06-2005 2:16 AM


Re: FEMA
And who is “they”? It's always about "them", never "us".

See? Blame anybody but Bush. He's always last to be blamed, even behind private citizens who could have done nothing.

I really don't want to keep bringing up the money and the politics side of it but your implication is that the administration knew about this and deliberatly ignored the situation.

Implication? That's my explicit position. They knew for years and did nothing.

There are numerous books written about the levees, but it wasn't going to happen because it wasn't a political reality.

Circular reasoning. It wasn't a "political reality" because they didn't choose to make it one. A needless war in Iraq wasn't a "political reality" either, until they made it one.

That's not something a liberal would do.

Ah, so we're blaming the liberals now. Blame anybody but Bush, I guess.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Monk, posted 09-06-2005 2:16 AM Monk has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 297 (240777)
09-06-2005 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Silent H
09-06-2005 5:49 AM


Re: FEMA
Berb, did you see/hear that Barbara Bush said that many of the people were unfortunates (poor) anyway, and so they are doing all right through this (emergency relief and all)?

Do people even pay attention to what their president actually says?

quote:
"'The good news is - and it's hard for some to see it now - that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house -- he's lost his entire house - there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch.' (Laughter)." - president George W. Bush

Is Andrew Sullivan maybe the world's smartest Republican? Or is he maybe the only one that hasn't drunk the Bush kool-aid? Here's his remarks:

quote:
Just think of that quote for a minute; and the laughter that followed. The poor and the black are dying, dead, drowned and desperate in New Orleans and elsewhere. But the president manages to talk about the future "fantastic" porch of a rich, powerful white man who only recently resigned his position because he regretted the failure of Strom Thurmond to hold back the tide of racial desegregation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Silent H, posted 09-06-2005 5:49 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Silent H, posted 09-06-2005 8:33 AM crashfrog has responded

nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 85 of 297 (240784)
09-06-2005 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Silent H
09-06-2005 5:47 AM


Re: FEMA
Could it be that news has become more or less infotainment anyway, and so the hurricane was not a real issue until it hit?

That, indeed, is a huge problem.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Silent H, posted 09-06-2005 5:47 AM Silent H has not yet responded

Silent H
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 86 of 297 (240786)
09-06-2005 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by crashfrog
09-06-2005 7:29 AM


Re: FEMA
"'The good news is - and it's hard for some to see it now - that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house -- he's lost his entire house - there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch.' (Laughter)." - president George W. Bush

Sounds like the Bush family is of one mind about this tragedy... everyone will be better off. What a great thing to happen to New Orleans and the south!

Barb laughed when she was talking about the poor being better off. Its nice to see they haven't lost their sense of humor.

Please Bush apologizers, tell me this is making you guys sick as well?


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 7:29 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by berberry, posted 09-06-2005 8:47 AM Silent H has responded
 Message 92 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 3:53 PM Silent H has not yet responded

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 297 (240788)
09-06-2005 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Silent H
09-06-2005 5:49 AM


Re: FEMA
holmes asks me:

quote:
Berb, did you see/hear that Barbara Bush said that many of the people were unfortunates (poor) anyway, and so they are doing all right through this (emergency relief and all)?

Yes, and I thought it was disgusting. The exact quote was:

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (she chuckled)--this is working very well for them."

This is a woman who's been in the public eye for decades. She should know better than to say something like that. Had she said "many of these survivors have had an extremely tough time of it in New Orleans and I hope they'll look at this as a way to get a fresh start and perhaps find a better life for themselves" I don't think she'd be getting all this criticism. But as it is (at least from my perspective) she's sort of the reverse of Nancy Reagan, in that she's someone I once admired but who I know look at with disgust.

If you'll do a search on her quote you'll have no trouble finding the audio. Listen to it; that little chuckle is absolutely revolting.


"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Silent H, posted 09-06-2005 5:49 AM Silent H has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 297 (240789)
09-06-2005 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Silent H
09-06-2005 8:33 AM


Re: FEMA
Yeah, that's the good news, huh? Trent Lott's getting a new house folks! Ain't life grand? I just can't wait to go down there and drink mint julips on the front porch.


"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Silent H, posted 09-06-2005 8:33 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Chiroptera, posted 09-06-2005 8:49 AM berberry has not yet responded
 Message 91 by Silent H, posted 09-06-2005 10:11 AM berberry has not yet responded

Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6532
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 89 of 297 (240790)
09-06-2005 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by berberry
09-06-2005 8:47 AM


Re: FEMA
Hey, let's invite all the poor people of Louisiana and Mississippi! Party at Trent's, dudes!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by berberry, posted 09-06-2005 8:47 AM berberry has not yet responded

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 297 (240801)
09-06-2005 9:33 AM


Yep, Mike Brown is about as stupid as they come
I was reviewing the original 'Hurricane Katrina' thread, and one of my own posts from early on underscores the point of what a complete and utter idiot Michael Brown is. Note that this was well before landfall, and that said landfall was indeed east of the city.


"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005
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