Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,895 Year: 4,152/9,624 Month: 1,023/974 Week: 350/286 Day: 6/65 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 144 of 219 (248576)
10-03-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by iano
09-29-2005 12:43 PM


Re: We meet again
quote:
God is infallible. He never makes a mistake.
I thought that the reason God murdered every living thing in The Flood was because He wasn't pleased with what He had created (except for Noah and his family), and he needed to start all over again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by iano, posted 09-29-2005 12:43 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 4:49 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 145 of 219 (248577)
10-03-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by iano
09-29-2005 12:43 PM


Re: We meet again
quote:
What would you have him do. Create automatons?
How do you know God hasn't created automatons who only believe they have free will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by iano, posted 09-29-2005 12:43 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 4:53 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 146 of 219 (248579)
10-03-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by iano
09-29-2005 12:13 PM


Re: We meet again - (I sure hope it will be up there)
quote:
The article demonstrates why it's called Quantum theory, not Quantum fact...
There's also Gravitational Theory.
Do you disagree that there is a force called "gravity" that can also be demonstrated to be a fact as?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by iano, posted 09-29-2005 12:13 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 4:57 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 147 of 219 (248588)
10-03-2005 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
09-30-2005 2:58 PM


Re: He chose this reality, not us
quote:
A Christian starts out trying to show the human need for a Savior and soon encounters all these objections to God's allowing sin at all instead of gratitude that a way out is offered. It's a strange conversation. I think I will try to avoid it in future.
If one follows your viewpoint back to it's logical conclusion, that is where it leads.
If your portrayal of God is correct, then god isn't some big hero for "offering a way out", because he put us in this terrible situation Himself, on purpose, knowing it would cause us immense suffering.
God needlessly set up humanity to fail, like rats in a science experiments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 2:58 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 10-03-2005 3:11 PM nator has not replied
 Message 153 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-03-2005 9:20 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 148 of 219 (248590)
10-03-2005 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Funkaloyd
10-01-2005 9:35 AM


Re: We meet again
quote:
I should think that not many are readily able to accept the possibility that God isn't benevolent
I don't see why not.
That was the view of God that the Early Hebrews had.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Funkaloyd, posted 10-01-2005 9:35 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 191 of 219 (249270)
10-05-2005 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by iano
10-04-2005 4:49 AM


Re: We meet again
quote:
Murder is unrighteous killing. God is righteous thus he can't murder.
But I have exactly the same knowledge of good and evil as God, so I have used that ability (which is the same as God's) to judge His actions.
Therefore, the fact that he killed EVERYTHING on the planet, even the babies in their mothers' wombs, even the animals, even the plants, for goodness sake, leads me to the opinion that the Flood was not a rightous act.
It was incredibly cruel and rather sadistic.
And God clearly calls it a mistake that he made humans, althogh why he also had to destroy all the animals and the plants too, which seemed to not have done anything wrong, I really don't get.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Wy does God need to repent if he hasn't made a mistake?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 4:49 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:49 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 192 of 219 (249273)
10-05-2005 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by iano
10-04-2005 4:53 AM


Re: We meet again
How do you know God hasn't created automatons who only believe they have free will?
quote:
Because it doesn't fit.
That is exactly what an automaton that only thinks they have free will would believe.
quote:
How can you punish an automaton (Adam and Eve) who is programmed to disobey you and at the same time be perfectly just? Illogical.
I do not think that someone who rejects science in favor of a 2000 year old nomadic sheepherder's religion is in any position to be playing the "logic card" at this juncture.
If you are going to claim "God used his super powers" to explain away most of modern science, I think that my proposition is perfectly valid using your standards of evidence and explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 4:53 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:54 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 193 of 219 (249278)
10-05-2005 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by iano
10-04-2005 5:21 AM


Re: We meet again
quote:
And perfect relationship is what he is after, what he is going to have. His perogative. He sets the adgenda, not us. We can choose to partake in his plan or not. Ours is not to set the plan. Your opinion of his plan is irrelevant.
Do all humans have the same ability as God, to Know Good from Evil, because Adam and Eve ater of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and became "as God", or not?
If we do, then our "opinion" of the plan is certainly valid, because we have the same ability as God to judge it as Good or Evil.
If not, then is Genesis incorrect in saying that humanity has the same ability as God to judge Good from Evil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:21 AM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 194 of 219 (249279)
10-05-2005 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by iano
10-04-2005 5:21 AM


Re: We meet again
quote:
When it becomes the world best selling book, loved by millions, a comfort in times of trouble, a source of hope and joy... (snip)
...a major source of needles guilt and shame, justification for persecution, genocide, slavery, torture subjegation, sexism, racism, and all-around injustice...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:21 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:57 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 212 of 219 (251409)
10-13-2005 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by iano
10-06-2005 10:54 AM


Re: We meet again
I do not think that someone who rejects science in favor of a 2000 year old nomadic sheepherder's religion is in any position to be playing the "logic card" at this juncture.
quote:
What science am I rejecting? What does "2000 years", "nomadic", "sheepherder" and "religion" do to indicate that something isn't logical?
The very next sentence from my previous post answers your question.
Why didn't you include it in your response?
Here it is for you now:
If you are going to claim "God used his super powers" to explain away most of modern science, I think that my proposition (that God made us all automatons that only [i]think[/b] we have free will) is perfectly valid using your standards of evidence and explanation.
Oh, and the science you are rejecting would be modern Biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:54 AM iano has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 213 of 219 (251411)
10-13-2005 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by iano
10-06-2005 10:57 AM


Re: We meet again
quote:
..a major source of needles guilt and shame, justification for persecution, genocide, slavery, torture, subjegation, sexism, racism, and all-around injustice...
quote:
What about the god you appear to worship - Science. Shall we take a look at some of the downsides there??
I "worship" science in the same way I "worship" a hammer.
It is a useful tool.
quote:
As with science Schraf, the way it is applied is wrong - it is not wrong in and of itself. Wouldn't you agree.
Science is a very useful, effective tool that is used to better understand the natural mechanisms of the Universe.
It is neutral WRT ethics and morality; we apply ethical and moral constraints to scientific endeavors as we deem neccessary.
Unlike Christianity and other religions, science does not claim to be the only source of righteousness, nor Ultimate Truth, etc., while you do claim this for Christianity and the Bible.
Therefore, it is perfectly valid to find fault with the system itself for being immoral or unethical because it claims to be a source of morals and ethics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 10:57 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Hawkins, posted 10-15-2005 10:26 AM nator has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024