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Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: I'm trying: a stairway to heaven? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: First World War trench.... Bad analogy. The soldiers who cowered in the corner were not "doing their best". The ones who did go over the top and got killed half-way across no-man's-land did do their best, even if they didn't succeed. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Which part of the word 'Command' do you not understand? It seems that you are the one who doesn't understand the word "command". Allow me to refer you back to your (failed) analogy in Message 9: The soldiers who went over the top did obey the command. Even the ones who failed to reach their objective did obey the command. Obedience is not about 100% success. Never was. Never will be. Obedience is about doing your best. That's what soldiers get medals for. That's what we get rewards in heaven for. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Your expanding on the analogy unnecessarily. The analogy ends at going over the top - not whether you subsequently storm machine gun nests. So you arbitrarily cut off your own analogy where it ceases to illustrate your point? Fine, let's look at the situation before your chosen cut-off point:
Do you obey the command "go over the top" or not? If you do fine. If you don't shot at dawn. Suppose a soldier goes up the ladder, bullet through the forehead. Dead. Didn't make it up the ladder. Didn't make it to dawn. Shooting him again seems a bit redundant, doesn't it? He did obey the order. He just didn't succeed 100%.
nobody obeys the command "Love God/Love your neighbour. You've been given examples - Job, for instance - in whom "no fault was found". They did succeed 100%, according to the Bible.
the purpose of this thread is to offer the chance for "try" to be extracted from the bible on matters of obeying the law. You need to pull your head out of... Romans... and look at the Big Picture: ALL of the Bible suggests that God is a "righteous and holy" father. Do you agree with that? If you do, how can you even suggest that a father would demand more than their "best try" from his children? People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: ... this thread offers those who reckon they can "try climb the stairway to heaven" the opportunity to make that case biblically. The trouble is, you haven't given a shred of evidence that trying is not sufficient.
quote: It seems that Jesus' standard of "perfection" was not that hard to follow after all.
quote: Even before Jesus was born, Zacharias and Elizabeth kept all of the commandmnents and were blameless. So how about giving us some scripture to back up your viewpoint? Everything we've seen so far seems to contradict you. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
The onus (according to the OP) is on you - not me. Hardly. My purpose here is to show that your outlook on salvation is nonsensical and unscriptural. So far - judging by the responses of everybody else - mission accomplished.
If only you had included the rich mans response in your rather truncated quote Remember your analogy about giving directions to London? By your own standard, it doesn't matter whether the person follows the directions or not - merely that the directions were given. Jesus gave the rich man directions. The rich man chose not to follow them, just as the soldiers in your other analogy chose to disobey orders. Those who do follow Jesus' instructions will still get the reward in Heaven that He promised.
Two options here: the were righteous because they lived according... or lived this way because they were righteous. One cannot tell from this text which it was....Chicken and egg scenario And it doesn't matter one bit which it was. The point here is that they were blameless - which you say is impossible. You contradict the Bible. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
When/if you get on-topic I'll be all ears But I am on topic. I have said that the entire Bible describes God as being righteous and holy - and that a righteous and holy Father would not demand from His children more than they can deliver. If you want to seriously defend your position, you have to deal with that. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
I don't see anything wrong with this man-made logical conclusion. But we're not on man-made logic here. We're on biblical logic... But man-made logic is all we have. If there is a separate "Biblical logic", which arrives at a different conclusion - and you are the only one who seems to see it - then why do you refuse to share it with us? People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Now if I was spiritual and you weren't then I would discern things that you would not. Not because I am smarter but purely because I am spiritual. quote: Biblical case - not your own non-biblical exratpolations as to what must be.... But it is in the Bible, as you have been shown:
The Biblical case for "trying" seems pretty solid and no case against it has been proposed. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: He crucified his own son. Uh... the Romans crucified Jesus.
Surely if he could lower his standards so that we could fulfill them.... You have been shown that we can fulfil them.
... then Jesus crucifixion would have been unnecessary. Jesus' crucifixion was unnecessary. His message would be no less important if He had died of old age.
Jesus gave simple instructions for salvation - Love thy neighbour as thyself. But you nor I nor anybody else follows them. Aren't you paying attention? Zacharias and Elizabeth did follow them. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Clue 1: Commands: do/follow/obey or else....no trying implied The clue that you need to get here is that a "command" is not, never was and never will be an "obey or else" proposition. As in your own analogy of the soldiers: Do your best to go over the top. If you get killed trying, you're a hero, not a traitor. There is no punishment for failure, as long as you do your best. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: For the non-Christian there is no reward because nothing they have done can have pleased God. Jesus told us what we have to do to please God:
quote: Loudly proclaiming, "I am a Christian and you're not," is not part of it:
quote: It's the ones who don't "love thy neighbour" who are punished:
quote: God will divide the sheep from the goats, and it is clear that that division is based on what was done to the least of Jesus' brothers. It is not based on whether or not one is in the "club". People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Hands up those who have ever not loved their neighbour. Compare these two verses:
quote: and:
quote: Notice that it doesn't say, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind." Nor does it say, "Thou shalt succeed 100% in loving thy neighbour all of the time." It says, "Love thy neighbour as thyself. Jesus once again:
quote: Is your neighbour hungry? Make him a sandwich. Is he thirsty? Give him your last Guinness. Is he wandering the streets with no place to go? Let him sleep on your couch. Does he need a warm coat for the Canadian winter? Give him one of yours. Is he sick or in prison? Visit him. If you would like your neighbour to do any of those things for you, do it for him. That's what it means to love thy neighbour as thyself. Stop pretending it can't be done and start doing it.
quote: People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Such a seemingly simple command. So impossible to follow You continue to demonstrate that you don't understand what a command is. By your own analogy, the soldier who tries to obey a command is a hero. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: It says, "Love thy neighbour as thyself.
It doesn't say how often. It doesn't tell you when you can stop - thus implying you can only stop when you are finished. Let's look at your own analogy of the soldiers in the trench. The command is not, "Go over the top and stand milling around in no-man's land." The command is, "Capture the enemy position." And, of course, any soldier who is killed while trying to obey that command has done his duty to the best of his ability. Similarly, when you have fed every hungry person, etc., you can stop. If you stop before the job is finished, you are willfully disobeying the command, and you will be punished. If you try your best to obey the command, you will be rewarded. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iano writes: Could you supply the name of the tramp you have living in your home at the moment... There's nothing in the Bible that requires me to ask them their names. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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