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Author Topic:   The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 31 of 300 (255904)
10-31-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by joshua221
10-31-2005 7:53 PM


Re: I want, I want.
GOD'S

That doesn't solve the problem.

All we have is different people telling us what is God's idea of righteousness. But these people don't agree with one another.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 7:53 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by joshua221, posted 11-01-2005 8:41 AM nwr has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 32 of 300 (255910)
10-31-2005 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by joshua221
10-31-2005 7:38 PM


Tartaroo Not Hell
4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;

Your verse from 2 Peter is also not hell. The word used is tartaroo. It is a mythical place of retention, not torture.

quote:
To soften the messages of the text, as scholars, and lately, purpledawn does with Jesus' parables, is wrong, and is the "easy was out".
I feel it is wrong to misrepresent the text. Nothing I have presented negates the judgment of the wicked.

Their judgement is death, total destruction, permanent separation from God.
A judgment that is never reversed for all eternity.

Merciful and torture do not go together.


Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by joshua221, posted 10-31-2005 7:38 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-01-2005 3:23 AM purpledawn has not yet responded
 Message 38 by joshua221, posted 11-01-2005 8:46 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 33 of 300 (255933)
11-01-2005 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by purpledawn
10-31-2005 3:30 PM


Re: What about Luke?
That is a parable being told by Jesus. The parable is crafted to emphasize the point, not present facts.

Are you saying that Jesus made up a firey underworld of torment to emphasize a point?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by purpledawn, posted 10-31-2005 3:30 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 7:27 AM Modulous has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4629 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 34 of 300 (255939)
11-01-2005 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by purpledawn
10-31-2005 9:02 PM


Re: Tartaroo Not Hell
I think the Essenes, Jews who existed both before and around the time of Christ, seemed to think that there was some kind of eternal torment for "sinners". They weren't using it as a parable in the sense that the eternal torment itself was "mythical".

As one writer notes:

Essenes writes:

Regardless of their vows of poverty on earth, the Essenes shared grandiose visions of their rewards of wealth and power after the destruction of this world. The and the early Christians thought, as most Christians are expected to think today, this world is only a testing place to determine whether the immortal soul deserves the eternal reward or punishment of heaven or hell. The world or earth itself was not worth preserving or caring for because they believed in the end God would destroy this world and build a more perfect one. When being resurrected in this perfect world they believed they world live in glorified and perfect bodies. This seems to be a hope of attaining in an eternal future the things which one cannot attain in the present.

Consequently, I don't think Christ or the gospel writers, both contempoaries of the Essenes, were using this idea of eternal torment in this "mythical" sense either.

Edit: I found this an interesting and revealing article worth examining: The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament by Mark M. Mattison

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 11-01-2005 03:42 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 10-31-2005 9:02 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 35 of 300 (255949)
11-01-2005 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Modulous
11-01-2005 2:19 AM


Re: What about Luke?
quote:
Are you saying that Jesus made up a firey underworld of torment to emphasize a point?
No. I'm saying that Jesus, the storyteller, is going to use whatever is familiar to his audience to make his point.

As truthlover commented in Message 14, the writings of Enoch were probably familiar to his audience. His audience was probably also familiar with Greek and Roman mythology.

Also there was more than one Jewish Sect or school of thought. The Sadducees didn't believe in a spirit world or resurrection, but the Pharisees and Essenes did.

Just as we have religious beliefs and traditions today that aren't supported by the canon, people of the past also had beliefs and traditions that weren't necessarily based on what was considered God's word.

Bottom line: This teaching of this parable was not about the underworld, but selfishness.


Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 2:19 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 7:33 AM purpledawn has responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 36 of 300 (255950)
11-01-2005 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by purpledawn
11-01-2005 7:27 AM


Re: What about Luke?
No. I'm saying that Jesus, the storyteller, is going to use whatever is familiar to his audience to make his point.

So the people were familiar with a burning world of torment but Jesus was of the opinion that it didn't exist, yet he reinforced this false belief by pretty much discussing its existence in public?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 7:27 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 10:14 AM Modulous has responded

joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 37 of 300 (255963)
11-01-2005 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by nwr
10-31-2005 8:12 PM


There is no problem, we are not to judge the deeds of others, and decide for them a consequence. Let God decide, for we cannot.

Matthew 7:3 - Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?


The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by nwr, posted 10-31-2005 8:12 PM nwr has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 38 of 300 (255964)
11-01-2005 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by purpledawn
10-31-2005 9:02 PM


Re: Tartaroo Not Hell
Ok, I pretty much agree.


The ocean breathes salty, won't you carry it in?
In your head, in your mouth, in your soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I hope so.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 10-31-2005 9:02 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 39 of 300 (255980)
11-01-2005 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Modulous
11-01-2005 7:33 AM


Re: What about Luke?
quote:
So the people were familiar with a burning world of torment but Jesus was of the opinion that it didn't exist, yet he reinforced this false belief by pretty much discussing its existence in public?

No. I'm saying that people understood the use of parables. Odds are that Jesus setup the parable better than the author of Luke did.

Using your rationale, all good people will actually be in the bosom of Abraham. I don't think the man was that big!

Luke 16:23
"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom."

Jesus didn't teach that the righteous would end up in the bosom of Abraham either, but it is in this parable.


Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 7:33 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 10:53 AM purpledawn has responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 40 of 300 (256002)
11-01-2005 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by purpledawn
11-01-2005 10:14 AM


Re: What about Luke?
Using your rationale, all good people will actually be in the bosom of Abraham. I don't think the man was that big!

Not really. Using my rationale Lazarus was a good man and was raised by angels. During his time he received evil things but is now comforted. The bosom thing to me just speaks of being comforted by the Father of the Nation.

The rich man received good things on earth but is now tormented.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

I can't see how one can see this in any way that doesn't indicate that good people who put up with a load of suffering on earth will have their rewards in heaven, and those that take their rewards on earth (serving mammon), will be tormented in Hades.

AbE: Granted it might be the case that not all good people go to Abraham's Bosom. But I think, biblically, we can agree that Jesus believes that such an entity exists (and thus does exist). Did Jesus then decide to use an entity which does not exist (a flame ridden Hades) just to try and convert people?

I don't think the 'but its just a parable' line works here.

This message has been edited by Modulous, Tue, 01-November-2005 04:10 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 10:14 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 11:37 AM Modulous has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 300 (256006)
11-01-2005 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by joshua221
11-01-2005 8:41 AM


reading the Scriptures
Your quote from Matthew is nice but when pulled out of context it loses part of the meaning. The exhortation is not simply that you should not judge others, but that you must first look honestly at your own shortcomings. It's that "It is more important to improve yourself than to try to improve others, and that only when you've dealt with your own shortcomings that you can try to help others."

Matthew writes:

1: Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3: And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4: Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5: Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by joshua221, posted 11-01-2005 8:41 AM joshua221 has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 42 of 300 (256017)
11-01-2005 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Modulous
11-01-2005 10:53 AM


Back the Truck Up!
quote:
I can't see how one can see this in any way that doesn't indicate that good people who put up with a load of suffering on earth will have their rewards in heaven, and those that take their rewards on earth (serving mammon), will be tormented in Hades.

Lazarus was not deemed good and the rich man was not deemed bad. This is not about the rich actually being tormented because they have money or vice versa. Bad poor people still get judgement and rich good people still get the rewards.

The lesson of the parable is about selfishness.

Treat others the way you want to be treated.


Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 10:53 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Modulous, posted 11-01-2005 11:56 AM purpledawn has responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 43 of 300 (256020)
11-01-2005 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by purpledawn
11-01-2005 11:37 AM


Re: Back the Truck Up!
Lazarus was not deemed good and the rich man was not deemed bad.

Well the parable comes shortly after

Luke writes:

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

So one assumes that the rich man doesn't serve God, but mammon

The rich man also says

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Indicating that they have something to repent for.

The lesson of the parable is about selfishness.

Treat others the way you want to be treated.

I agree, the parables lesson is about selfishness, the rich man used his money for his own comfort and neglected Lazarus. The selfless (Good) people who suffer on earth will have their rewards in heaven. The selfish servants of mammon who have their rewards on earth will be tormented in Hades.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 11:37 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2005 1:52 PM Modulous has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 44 of 300 (256026)
11-01-2005 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by nwr
10-31-2005 7:47 PM


Re: I want, I want.
nwr writes:

Whose notion of "righteousness"? Will it be that of prophex? Or George Bush (dubya)? Or jar? Or iano? Or schraffinator? Or mike_the_wiz?

You obviously ain't been paying attention at the back there nwr. Which part of "But now a righteousness from God is revealed which is by faith from first to last" do you not understand?

:)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 10-31-2005 7:47 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by nwr, posted 11-01-2005 1:38 PM iano has responded

nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 45 of 300 (256034)
11-01-2005 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by iano
11-01-2005 12:44 PM


Re: I want, I want.
Which part of "But now a righteousness from God is revealed which is by faith from first to last" do you not understand?

We evidently live in different worlds.

In the ideal world where you live, presumably righteousness comes from God.

In the real world where I live, it isn't that easy. There is a constant clamor from people declaring what is righteous, but these people disagree with one another. There is no evidence that I can find suggesting that God has left a clear guide to righteousness. However, amongst the clamor there are many who assert that they are expressing God's righteousness. But, again, those who assert that they express God's righteousness disagree with one another as to what that is.

If I ever happen to find myself in your ideal world, I will be guided by the principle you stated. But for now, I must find a way of guiding myself in the real world, surrounded by that clamor of contradictory claims.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by iano, posted 11-01-2005 12:44 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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