In defense of nihilism

The nihilist does not need to believe that there are objective values. But the wise man is pragmatic. One might be an unwise nihilist, of course.

To decide to believe some doctrine just because it offered hope would be dishonorable.

The IngratesI"We must not," he said outloud one night to no one, "expect gratitude from those who know not what we do, from whom we either hide away as if they were lepers, or whom we deceive with disguises, clothed as they are clothed, speaking as they speak."There was once a very powerful and very rich old man who lived up in the mountains. He had a son and an adopted daughter and they played together in the beautiful valley. The old man owned all the land for miles around. The son and daughter (whom he thought of almost as a real daughter) never saw anyone but the old man and some hired help about the place. But one day they did something he had told them not to do: they read a few pages out of a book he had forbidden. The book was, in itself, a good book. He had forbidden it because he thought it was over their heads.The old man grew incredibly angry and told them, "You must leave this valley now and live on your own."So they were sent into the desert down below the mountains where they suffered for lack of food and lack of shelter from the winter winds. But, miraculously, they survived. Little did they know that the old man had his hired hands observing them and reporting to the old man how they were doing. The old man ordered an irrigation ditch to be redirected so that the water flowed into a stream down into the desert, and he used a very subtle trick to incapacitate some edible wildlife and have them deposited near the lean-to where the son and daughter dwelt, so that they would have food to eat. The old man had many arts, and he injected a serum into the deer and wild hog that made them slow to run and easy to kill. Otherwise his son, who was an inexperienced spearsman, would never have been able to kill the animals. But the son did not realize this, for he was innocent in the ways of the world.So the son and daughter survived and produced progeny, for they eventually coupled.Many years passed, and their sons and daughters grew up and committed fornication in the desert sand. And in the fullness of time a village grew up there and became a little kingdom of its own, thanks to the secret efforts of the old man. The son and daughter passed away, after catching a chill from the desert wind.One day the old man--he came from a family of long-livers--decided he wanted to visit what was after all his only family. "We must make it up," he said to himself. But he was a very strange old man, and having lived by himself for so long, had developed some queer notions. "They will not recognize me, " he thought. "None now living have ever seen me, though I know they have heard of me" (for he had many spies). "I will not wear my finery to embarrass their rags. I will dress down for the occasion." So he betook himself to find some rags.Then he came down from the mountain and walked among his grandsons and granddaughters and even great-grandchildren, and they did not know him. Only, a few seemed almost to recognize him. He tried to hint at who he was by being very generous with his money and performing philanthropic deeds. After some little time, they grew curious about him."Who are you, old man?" one youngster asked.
"Who do people say I am?"
"Some say you are the legendary man of the mountain, the sire of us all. Are you?"
"Thou sayest."The old man had a habit of talking in riddles.(to be continued)This message has been edited by robinrohan, 11-29-2005 08:50 PM

I'll be bringing in some of your and Iano's ideas when I get a chance to continue it, and then you might find it less unsatisfactory.

The Ingrates
I"We must not," he said outloud one night to no one, "expect gratitude from those who know not what we do, from whom we either hide away as if they were lepers, or whom we deceive with disguises, clothed as they are clothed, speaking as they speak."There was once a very powerful and very rich old man who lived up in the mountains. He had a son and an adopted daughter and they played together in the beautiful valley. The old man owned all the land for miles around. The son and daughter (whom he thought of almost as a real daughter) never saw anyone but the old man and some hired help about the place. But one day they did something he had told them not to do: they read a few pages out of a book he had forbidden. The book was, in itself, a good book. He had forbidden it because he thought it was over their heads.The old man grew incredibly angry and told them, "You must leave this valley now and live on your own."So they were sent into the desert down below the mountains where they suffered for lack of food and lack of shelter from the winter winds. But, miraculously, they survived. Little did they know that the old man had his hired hands observing them and reporting to the old man how they were doing. The old man ordered an irrigation ditch to be redirected so that the water flowed into a stream down into the desert, and he used a very subtle trick to incapacitate some edible wildlife and have them deposited near the lean-to where the son and daughter dwelt, so that they would have food to eat. The old man had many arts, and he injected a serum into the deer and wild hog that made them slow to run and easy to kill. Otherwise his son, who was an inexperienced spearsman, would never have been able to kill the animals. But the son did not realize this, for he was innocent in the ways of the world.So the son and daughter survived and produced progeny, for they eventually coupled.Many years passed, and their sons and daughters grew up and committed fornication in the desert sand. And in the fullness of time a village grew up there and became a little kingdom of its own, thanks to the secret efforts of the old man. The son and daughter passed away, after catching a chill from the desert wind.One day the old man--he came from a family of long-livers--decided he wanted to visit what was after all his only family. "We must make it up," he said to himself. But he was a very strange old man, and having lived by himself for so long, had developed some queer notions. "They will not recognize me, " he thought. "None now living have ever seen me, though I know they have heard of me" (for he had many spies). "I will not wear my finery to embarrass their rags. I will dress down for the occasion." So he betook himself to find some rags.Then he came down from the mountain and walked among his grandsons and granddaughters and even great-grandchildren, and they did not know him. Only, a few seemed almost to recognize him. He tried to hint at who he was by being very generous with his money and performing philanthropic deeds. After some little time, they grew curious about him."Who are you, old man?" one youngster asked.
"Who do people say I am?"
"Some say you are the legendary man of the mountain, the sire of us all. Are you?"
"Thou sayest."The old man had a habit of talking in riddles.He had been there a few weeks, staying at the only hotel in the little kingdom (by his standards a dump), when he began to get the lay of the land. It was obvious that the leaders were very corrupt. The old man decided to act. He got involved in the politics of the place and was, after he engaged in a particularly vociferous condemnation of their corrupt activities, framed for the crime of unlawful entry into the kingdom, judged guilty by a bribed jury, and banished. While he was sitting there in the shabby courtroom waiting for the verdict, flies buzzing about (one lit comically upon the bald pate of the judge), the old man could hardly control his mirth. He thought, "If they only knew who I am . . . but they are stupid." He gazed about at the eyes of those present and noted how petty their expressions were--and how rapacious. "My family," he thought, "has degenerated. They have lost their beauty in the desert."There are some strange stories about what happened a few days afterward. Some said he sneaked back into town and was seen wandering about the streets. Others said they talked to him, and he told them not to touch him, for they were unclean. Another, rather wild tale, suggested that he was seen up at the top of the highest tree in town, laughing at them. These strange events--if they ever happened--grew into a legend and to this day people in the little kingdom speak of it.

Well, you have your agenda and I have mine. I was eager to get to the present day, so that I could bring in some of your and Faith's ideas. That's what this is really about.

II--"In the Mind of the Old Man"The old man, back in the mountains, mulled over his experiences with his extended family for a long time. From the very top of the tallest mountain, where he sometimes went to ponder, he could see off in the distance the faint beginnings of the desert, where his people lived."I could," he said to himself, "hire a band of mercenaries and easily conquer that hideous little hole they call a 'kingdom.'" He laughed to himself at their pretensions. "A kingdom? Ha, Ha! They don't know what a kingdom is. Behold my great halls of dining--my tables inlaid with marble--my arbors and luscious gardens where the fruits grow and the birds sing, and all is comfort and delight. The air is filled with the delicious scent of herbs and the faint mist from the great waterfall--all this against the backdrop of the majestic mountains wherein I dwell. They could have had this too, but they lost it, and look at them now.""I might have brought a few of my relatives back with me if I could have found any who were the least bit civilized. But they are all dirty and corrupt to the core. Beggars running in the streets, children's hair filled with lice, rats in the houses, disease everywhere--it's horrible to remember. O my people, what have you done to yourselves? Did I not divert the stream into the desert so that you might drink? Did I not often supply you with fresh meat? Would your wheat have grown without my water?""Oh, yes," he muttered later, walking up and down the Grand Walkway, servants in attendance--"there will come a time when I will conquer this so-called kingdom and they will surely pay for their ingratitude and their degeneration. But that time is not now. I am going to give them another chance.""I cannot physically go back to the little kingdom, for they will hate me and want to banish me again in their utter ignorance. I tried to teach them when I was among them. I tried to show them the way. I made many charitable contributions. I fought their crooked lawyers and politicians. They should have known who I was, if they had eyes to see or ears to hear. But it all came to nothing."I must devise a plan, some way to communicate with them without confronting them face to face. Because if I see them--if I see again what they have become--I might grow angry. And the worst part of it is, they feel no shame. They live in their sewers as though it were the most natural thing in the world. Do they not know whence they came? Do they not recognize their lineage?"A few days later, he was sitting before a warm fire--it was the first cold spell--in a quite different mood, for he was a man of many moods. [down in the little kingdom, the street urchins searched for cover from the wind]: He said to himself, "I want them to know that I am their benefactor, despite their wrong doing, but I don't want them to revere me simply because I have taken care of them all these many years. I want them to love me for myself. I want them to freely choose to love me because I am lovable, not because of what I can do for them. I'll have no sycophants about me, that's for certain. I want them to love me, and revere me, and greet me as their beloved king."

I've studied this matter rather thoroughly (in fact there's thread on evc about it). Hitler's moral standard is: what is natural is good. It is natural and therefore good for a superior people to dominate an inferior people.

Iano, my idea is half-baked, and for that reason, the writing is poor (a typical problem I have--impatience). But you are right about the serious stuff.I hope to do better when I have figured out what the hell I think I am doing.

Are you suggesting I am working out my own salvation by writing a parodic and mocking fable of Christianity?

I'm not so sure there is such a thing as "peace of mind." One has to face that fact. Christianity promotes fear, but it also promotes hope. So those emotions tend to cancel each other out.

I'm defining "peace of mind" as not worrying. Now I have never known anyone, believer or non-believer, who didn't worry. The human animal might be defined as "the being that worries."

Of course whether or not Christianity or any other religion brings one peace of mind or not is irrelevant. All that matters is whether or not it's true. If it's true, it's the most important matter in the world. If it's untrue, it's total rubbish.

Perhaps my use of the term is eccentric. One definition of "nihilism" is the belief in tearing down the existing order of society. I certainly have no desire to do that.One of the arguments made by some posters, such as iano, is that I am being inconsistent in maintaining a moral code and using words like "dishonorable," and then calling myself a "nihilist." But here we must make a distinction between our feelings and the logic of any moral code. I certainly have moral feelings, and my code is conventional, but I also know that there is no ground for this code logically. As Holmes has pointed out, it's really a matter of personal taste. A code is pragmatic, but it won't stand up to any kind of logical examination. Nonetheless, moral codes cannot be avoided.

In matters scientific, I am a dummy, as any scientist who has tried to explain something to me knows. I find this irritating. If I had an experience like Paul purportedly did, no doubt I would change my mind.So you're saying that Christianity offers certainty, whereas nothing else does. I find that a very strange statement.