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Author | Topic: Near-death experiences and consciousness | |||||||||||||||||||||||
randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Do you believe a person's consciousness or a form of consciousness can exist without the brain then?
Same question. Soul equals permanent consciousness.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Anyone care to assess why the author claims NEDs occur when the brain is not functioning? Sure. He's driven by an agenda to establish a pseudo-scientific basis for the existence of the soul. It's clear from his paper, and clear from his comments. Otherwise he wouldn't be making these statements in the absence of any evidence.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
He addresses that specifically and generally in his references to medical causes and in the other article written by him I quoted from. Well why not direct us to the specific points he makes to address it then, rather than making me read both articles again right the way through.
Moreover, one of the accounts he relies on deals with a woman who had the blood drained from here brain, operated on at very cold temperatures, with her eyes taped shut and yet she a very accurate description of details of the operation. I hope you will forgive the rather unorthodox approach to the remainder of this reply. Given that this refernce is to a book to which I don't have ready access it is hard to tell exactly what that particualr case shows. I have however tracked down an old JREF thread which has a sizable extract from the relevant chapter of the book. To get to the relevant section find 'page 37' and you will have the right post. This post is from a memeber of the board who has been convinced that a number of the claims about Pam Reynolds NDE have been confused in retelling, and that confusion is echoed in the section you quote. If you read the account of the operation, from the book Van Lommel referenced, you will see that in fact all of the details that might be properly verified, and are attested to on any number of pro NDE websites, occurred prior to the chilling and draining of the blood. There are veridical details associated with the OBE but not with the actual period of flat EEG. If you are aware of particulars which contradict this interpretation I would be glad to hear them. TTFN, WK *edited to correct link and page number* This message has been edited by Wounded King, 01-Dec-2005 10:50 AM This message has been edited by Wounded King, 01-Dec-2005 10:51 AM
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Do you believe a person's consciousness or a form of consciousness can exist without the brain then? If it can exist without the brain; remain in the physical world and make observations, hear sounds, see things, etc - why do we need brains at all? Why not have an empty skull? Maybe with a little hatch on the back to store things? What do our brains do if not thinking and remembering? And if that's not what they do, then why do drugs work?
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Again, that has nothing to do with this thread.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Again, the existance or non-existance of a soul has nothing to do with this thread.
LOL I thought it was clear in the OP, that randman thought he could prove the existence of a spiritual soul.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3672 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Why not have an empty skull? Maybe with a little hatch on the back to store things? Unfair. No coffee warning. Now have to clean the monitor... and my beard.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Sorry, friend. For future reference: see the big green frog over there on the left? That's your warning. Try not to ingest beverages until after you've finished reading.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Afraid to answer the question?
Not to be petty, but it really has everything to do with the thread. This message has been edited by randman, 11-30-2005 04:17 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Nonsense.
Yet more misdirection. This is not about what I might believe but rather what the evidence as laid out in the Lancet article shows. And so far you seem to dance all around that instead of responding to the issue. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
quote: How? We have a peer-reviewed study in a prestigious scientific journal claiming otherwise peer review and publication of a study in a scientific journal doesn't mean all of the author's opinions and beliefs are facts.
and we have your statement with no data given to back it up. or, if you had read the study you were talking about: quote: anyways, not to be accused of quotemining, the article is say that those explanations do not fully explain the phenominon. the above is immediately followed by:
quote: no reference given, but i'll assume for the benefit of the doubt it's talked about in one of the above references.
quote: and that's simply a result of the interpretation of the event by the cardiac arrect victim. if you black out while in a g-force simulator, you're not going to think you died and went to heaven, and if you have a hallucination while on lsd, you're more likely to rationalize it as such. but if you're on the operating table, and you die, you're less likely to think it was a product of your own biology. the fact that it means something to someone doesn't make it real, or an external phenominon. the article is arguing, basically, that biology alone is not enough. which is a "duh" statement. if we're counting after effects like the ones above, we're obvious including psychology. it's a call for explanation, not an explanation. what i am saying is that i consider the physiological and biological causes, when added to the psychological ones, to be enough, because the lack of an external meaning is contextual, and the fragmentation of memories is not a large enough difference. it's the same process, with similar results -- no suprises here. but i do agree with one point in the article: it should be studied more.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: ROTFLMAO!!
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Actually, it's just not about the Lancet article. That's just one article. It's about the idea. The fact you reject the idea so staunchly, imo, is surprising if you really believe in the existence of the soul, or consciousness independent of the body.
It's telling, imo, that you don't want to settle the issue by answering a simple question. But what is really odd is that you seem to deny that the doctor is even making these claims. At least WK here, even though he disagrees with the doctor, is willing to admit Van Pommel makes the claim of consciousness functioning while the brain is not. Thus far, you have not even been willing to acknowledge that fact, and it is an uncontestable fact that this is what the doctor claims. Very odd on your part, unless, well...
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Still trying to change the subject are you?
Nope, back to the topic. The Lancet article does not support your assertions. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
So far, you've been proven wrong, jar. You claimed the Lancet article did not make the claim of consciousness occuring without brain activity, but it does make that claim.
Do you admit that or not? Also, I think it's clear why you are reluctant to admit whether you believe the soul exists. This message has been edited by randman, 11-30-2005 10:47 PM
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