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Author Topic:   All species are transitional
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3883
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 241 of 246 (274200)
12-30-2005 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
12-30-2005 12:56 PM


Genetic potential / genetic diversity
I think this is highly tangential to the theme of the topic.

Probably worthy of a topic of it's own, if one does not already exist. Sombody please bump a suitable topic if they find it.

Please take any replies (other than an alternative topic cite) to the "General..." topic, link below.

Adminnemooseus


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 12:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 4007 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 242 of 246 (274203)
12-30-2005 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
12-30-2005 12:56 PM


The problem with this whole idea is that whenever you split a population group, each new group, while developing new forms, loses some genetic potentials, so the idea that there can be continuous open-ended change is an illusion. Over time the processes that split populations {ABE: and produce new phenotypes} also reduce genetic diversity, which ultimately reaches a point where no further change is possible. It sounds good but it doesn't work. I believe this natural limit to change is the definition of a Kind. Yes, supposedly mutation counteracts this effect, but I think that's mostly a matter of blind faith too.

There is absolutely no evidence to support this that I am aware of...

What "genectic potentials" are even required? I've never even heard of that term (although I'm no biologist).

If understand how all this works... Doesn't every single act of sexual reproduction contribute to genetic diversity? Combining this with mutation seems to be more than adequate for evolution.

I don't understand what you are talking about. You seem to think there is some level of genetic diversity require somehow... what level is that? Can you quantify it? Or did you just make this up?

(I just googled this and couldn't find anything about it)...

How small does a population group have to be before it can't cant any more...

This sounds like wild hypothesizing with no evidence to me....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 12:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-30-2005 1:43 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not yet responded
 Message 246 by Brad McFall, posted 12-30-2005 11:06 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not yet responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3883
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 243 of 246 (274208)
12-30-2005 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
12-30-2005 1:35 PM


No genetic diversity / genetic potential topic found - Short term closure
I have searched and failed to find a topic relevant to Faith's assertion. I suggest Faith start one in the Proposed New Topics forum, if she wishes to pursue the matter.

Going to short term close this topic, to stop this topic derailment.

Other admins - Feel welcome to reopen this topic as you see fit. I may well be out of contact for a while.

Adminnemooseus


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 12-30-2005 1:35 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 12-30-2005 6:19 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31820
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 246 (274265)
12-30-2005 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Adminnemooseus
12-30-2005 1:43 PM


Re: No genetic diversity / genetic potential topic found - Short term closure
Just for the record, not to further derail the thread, these are all threads where this topic was discussed a great deal. The first one was all about this topic.


Natural Limitation to Evolutionary Processes


Some mutations sound too good to be true

the phylogeographic challenge to creationism


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-30-2005 1:43 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

    
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 4007 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 245 of 246 (274272)
12-30-2005 7:28 PM


population groups
So to get back on topic... Along with all species being transitional species is a completely human concept. It's simply a classification system like any other (middle-aged vs elderly people, etc).

Another important point is that all members of a population group (for sexual reproducing creatures) are always in the same species. In fact, evolution predicts that it should be almost impossible to witness live speciation except for very short-lived creatures.

So not only is the argument "Show me a cat turn into a dog" not hold water it would actually be evidence against the theory of evolution if it was true.


  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3205 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 246 of 246 (274300)
12-30-2005 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
12-30-2005 1:35 PM


for linkage purposes only
Percy with tongue in or out of cheek, might indeed have circumscribed what loss of “genetic potential” might have
quote:
A phase substance is in the magnitude that any one can understand the teaching of the term kinetic energy of genetic effects under standard conditions

www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=5&t=21&m=1#2 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=5&t=21&m=1#2">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=5&t=21&m=1#2
meant formatively. I see no reason to doubt that a thermophene’s thermostat must be conserved under signification of the most significant population number effective. I am however somewhat teasing with that formulation. I have been reading recent criticism of Wright’s shifting balance theory but I can find no reason likewise to doubt the need for loss of this degree of linguistic intricacy either in a classical interpration nor one more evcesque, so I see no need to berate Faith for a concept not found in the foreground of criticism on allele change evolution. Perhaps I could show that analysis of neutral changes are actually the place where the loss to entropy thus occurs electrically. I am not holding my receding hair line on it however.

Mini-D, I would not say that just because you can notice a schism in postings on EVC with the acknowledgement of comparably better context or content on EVC than other creation/evolution sites, that notions raised by “non-biologists” (let’s say) are less than useful because the evolution literature itself fails to sustain a unified front in any way really. Evolution and Creation discussions on EVC seem to range WIDER than the technical literature itself. What often happens contrarily is that individuals have certain fairly rock-solid positions in ” real science time” and need only foil OFF other posters who press the court without skills to make the simple layup. There is never really an issue if someone misses a post or so on the first round but if a robin is continually time after time a woodpecker than it does matter if the tree falls but only one person hears it.

If evolution can “slow down” then something is lost as forms are made. This would have to be expressed “genetically” whether significantly or not, I have not synthesized. I need to comment more on cause and correlation as I indicated in the last post in the linked thread before I can start to flesh down the living potentiality of Faith’s suggested/suggestive wording(s).


This message is a reply to:
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