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Author Topic:   All species are transitional
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 50 of 246 (250557)
10-10-2005 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by robinrohan
10-10-2005 5:55 PM


Re: Reproductive isolation
Leaving aside for the moment sudden geographic isolation, what happens, I suppose, is that the genes that were once compatible become incompatible. But doesn't that mean there are noticeable physical differences that have already taken place?
Other types of isolation include behavioral isolation, where potential mates don't recognize each other's behavior as signals for mating; mechanical isolation, where organisms attempt to mate but are physically unable to unite sperm and egg (perhaps the penis is too large, or the sperm cannot survive the environment of the vagina); or even seasonal/temporal isolation, where potential mates simply do not become ready to mate in synchronicity (boy, who hasn't had that problem?)
Any of these situations, which are not themselves neccesarily genetic in nature, can interrupt gene flow between two populations, and lead eventually to the sorts of genetic changes that result in complete genetic incompatibility.

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 Message 49 by robinrohan, posted 10-10-2005 5:55 PM robinrohan has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 53 of 246 (250599)
10-10-2005 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by robinrohan
10-10-2005 7:56 PM


Re: Reproductive isolation
What would be the cause of this change of behavior?
I don't know. Any number of things, I suppose, ranging from the biochemical and genetic to the social and communal. Offhand I don't know of any relevant examples, I'm sorry.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 100 of 246 (253235)
10-19-2005 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Cold Foreign Object
10-19-2005 6:23 PM


Re: some things need some support
Untold hundreds upon hundreds of thousands species have come and gone and geologic formations failed to capture any of them transitioning ?
Huh? Transitioning?
How does that make any sense? The fossil record is a record of dead organisms. Transition from one form to another is something that happens to populations, not to individuals.
Therefore no one fossil can "transition." That's not an expectation coherent with sense.
This conspicuous fact is now eviscerated of any falsification meaning by the only option left - assert all species are intermediate, and by doing so we are back to square one: macroevolution still assumed because there is no actual evidence connecting the species showing relationship between them.
Quick, driver - follow those goalposts!

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 145 of 246 (254953)
10-26-2005 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by robinrohan
10-26-2005 8:59 PM


Re: speckles
So it's valid to say that that first heavily speckled creature--the first one ever--is a new species when he is born?
I think you're going to find it's a lot harder to draw the line than you'd like it to be.
By analogy - one drop of water is not rain. Ten drops of water, not rain. An inch in an hour - that's definately rain. So when did it start raining? There's no clear line to be drawn; you could say "after 1000 drops" but it's not really raining any less at 999 drops, or any more at 1001 drops.
You can tell when its raining. You can tell when its not raining. But any line you draw between "raining" and "not raining" is going to be arbitrary, because, contrary to the black-and-white nature of the way we've constructed language to describe the weather, there's a continumm between raining and not-raining.
Another way to look at it is probabilistically. At "not-raining", there's a 0% chance that you would be correct to say it was raining. At "raining", there's a 100% chance that you would be correct to say so. Somewhere in between there was a 50% chance that it was raining at that point in time, but there's no way to know 100% if it was raining or not. At that point, your confidence in your statement that it is raining is only 50%.
So too with species. Sorry if the analogy was tortuous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by robinrohan, posted 10-26-2005 8:59 PM robinrohan has replied

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 Message 146 by robinrohan, posted 10-27-2005 12:38 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 165 of 246 (255160)
10-27-2005 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by robinrohan
10-27-2005 12:38 AM


Re: speckles
But what I want to know is--if one could go back in time--if one could identify a particular species being born from another species at a particular time.
I don't understand how you could. It's self-evident to me that gene flow exists between a parent and its offspring; thus, no reproductive isolation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by robinrohan, posted 10-27-2005 12:38 AM robinrohan has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 171 of 246 (255203)
10-27-2005 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by robinrohan
10-27-2005 5:47 PM


Re: Species Transition Point
The moment they are totally isolated. What's arbitrary about that?
The moment that they are "totally isolated" is completely arbitrary. That's what's arbitrary about it - it's arbitrariness.

This message is a reply to:
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