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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Silly Design Institute: Let's discuss BOTH sides of the Design Controversy... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
You'll learn Jeremy. My first posts here were similar. This is a large board with several fairly major divisions, some of which I have very little interest in (debating what the bible does or doesn't mean is relatively irrelevant in my world-view), and others where I find a lot of interest (I stay mostly on the science boards.)
This means there are likely places for anyone to find topics of interest. Enjoy. by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
One of the "icons" of the Neo-Paleyist "intelligent" design concepts is the bacterial flagellum. Whether or not this concept has been debunked as an "irreducibly complex" mechanism is open to some discussion, but here we look at whether this "icon" of many an ID essay has the markings of "intelligent" design or those of "silly" design.
Flagellum Fun Facts First lets look at a diagram of this mechanism, drawn to make it look as mechanical as possible: What happens is that ions cause the base to rotate, the "hook" is fixed (to aim the whip-like end of the flagellum) and the end whips about while it spins, at speeds that can reach many 100 Hertz (revolutions per second), and driving the bacterial cell at several body lengths a second (1). {abe}An nice animation of this mechanism can be seen at the Access Research Network Molecular Machines Museum website on The Bacterial Flagellum. {/abe} Obviously a highly efficient motor design, making maximum usage of the energy expended ... or is it? Here we have a similar arrangement, the spinning drive mechanism extends down a tube, is turned and then exits the "hook" to turn the drive part of the motor, a small propeller. We know one of these mechanisms was intentionally designed as a method of locomotion and for maximum efficiency in it's use of energy. Furthermore we know that the elements of this design have been developed over the course of many years of experimentation to select the best gear ratios, material strengths, power ratings and propeller design. Propellers in particular have undergone extreme design for improved efficiency, borrowing from the more prolific design of airplane wings and propellers in the process (such borrowing being an element frequently seen in good design when some other design element already is known to work and work well). So the question is whether the flagellum design measures up to the known reference intelligent design, or is it just flailing about?Any Bubba Can Do This Experiment There is a simple experiment that anyone with ready access to a couple of similar boats with similar engines can do evaluate the question:
Oh, and if the flagellum design wins? Publish, become a national hero to endangered manatees, broken propellers sufferers, etcetera and put many propeller design companies out of work. Note: a 25 foot boat traveling at 50 mph is traveling ~3 times its length in a second.Silliness Now consider that it would be extremely easy to make the flagellum become a propeller by the intelligent input of design information from other available systems. The flagellum could be easily split into two (or more) filaments that are then flattened and angled apart in a "Y" type pattern, and with one leg bent up and one down and both shortened (less material overall = more efficient design) you have a rudimentary propeller. Add some twist and some shape (such as you find on a penguin wing - used to "fly" underwater) and you have a more efficient design. We can get an idea of what this simple modification would look like by again referring to known intelligent design, this time to an early propeller design before scientific methods were applied (2):Except of course that a central spindle is not necessary and could be eliminated. But even these early propellers are silly by today's standards of design (3). The hose on the other hand can be nothing but a silly way to waste gas. This mechanism displays an excessively high Silliness Index (SI). Enjoy.References
Edited by RAZD, : updated sig Edited by RAZD, : pictures Edited by RAZD, : white background for propeller picture by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
having trouble with server, loading not completed yet.
You can see a nice animation of the flagellum at ARNhttp://www.arn.org/docs/mm/flagellum_all.htm by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
pictures now on a new site (thanks percy) and should load a lot faster as well.
{changed subtitle} This message has been edited by RAZD, 11*12*2005 12:08 PM
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
because I'm feeling silly
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
...with eight different pigments for vision, and thus apparently the ability to see eight different primary colors. You mean cones eh? Beats birds eating those poor peppered moths to heck.
... whereas it seemed at one time that vision had been invented about {*} times in the history of life, apparently at the genetic level, it was invented only once. Couldn't that just be the gene for light sensitivity from which all other eyes developed? The most primitive level of sight, but also most likely for the most primitive of multicell life forms, to regulate life to the rise and fall of the sun? {*} - missing a quantifier there? by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
You are forgetting the value of ornamentation.
You haven't lived until you have painted your toenails seven different shades of green with white stars and red rockets so that you can show off at the winter solstice dance (barefoot in the woods by the light of a new moon?) Of course this means it falls into mating behavior, and we know how silly that is. by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
even if the organism has no brain? (netting to see with?)
(sounds like a strawman argument ...) by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
But how could it have possibly had gametes if it were only single-celled? conjugal bliss? or the origin of sex in the first place? Page Not Found | HHMI BioInteractive by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So, I don't know, but maybe you do know if on the scale of a flagellum ,would a propeller-like configuration actually impart MORE or LESS motility to the bacterium? You would need to look at the reynolds numbers for the surface\speed relationship to do the speed comparison properly of course. Reynolds Number Calculator This is part of how information from scale models is interpreted to the full size design. This is what also makes the keels of sailboats in water have virtually the same design requirement as wings of airplanes in atmosphere (same speed to fluid density ratio). What the propeller vs wavy string issue is talking about is the efficiency of design in creating the desired movement. The major problems are going to be wasted energy (not focused on direct movement forward) and extra drag (lots of surface contact), both evident in the flagella.
Ok, it sounds like the bacterium is winning when scale is not taken into account. Isn't that doing just what you criticised? (and how many is "several"? )
but if they are meant to prove any kind of point... It is that the purpose of design is as important as the {fact\evidence\implication} of any design. If the result is silly, well then the design can't have been all that intelligent eh? (unless intended so ... still = silly design). by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
any new ID proponents?
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
hopefully only a temporary problem.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks. I've bookmarked it for reference. Of course this shows Silly Design features in the flounders.
The IDists need to consider all the evidence and both sides of the flounder ... er, design controversy. Edited by RAZD, : No reason given. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
It is time to revive the Design Controversy, and show again that the Silly Design Institute has much more substantiation for their concept than the neo-Paleyism of the so called "intelligent" design movement.
For intelligent design cannot account for all the diversity of life as we know it, and some things are just too silly to be intelligent. See Message 1 and linked papers. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : link to Message 1 we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
pictures fixed,
Enjoy by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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