Does the Errancy of Fundamentalism Disprove the God of the Bible?

quote:

---

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

---

This shows that it is a matter of heart. The sheep are lost, not the goats. The sheep he is referring to in this verse are children. Children are sheep, because they are innocent, and we must be like them, in their innocents to get into heaven. Read the chapter in its entirety.Goats are not going to heaven, according to the bible.

quote:

---

The Parable of the Lost Sheep
10"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.[a]

​

12"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

---

Little ones. Also read the verses before, and you will see that He is on the subject of children. I am not a fundie, or a literalists, I hope after seeing my explanation, you will take that back.I feel I have a very good understanding of the bible, through the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, not by my own wisdom. The bible is deep, and these conversations can take many posts to sort out.I feel God has revealed a small portion of Himself to me, through the Holy Spirit, about as much as I can handle. Ever since that day, my wisdom of the bible increased several times over. In the snap of a finger. When you come face to face with His goodness, and His sprit, there is instant revelation.

Matthew 7 is future tense. Jesus will turn his back on those who reject Him. Your claim was that He already did it here on earth. Your own quote says "he who does the will of my Father". It is certainly not a matter of heart (belief). It is a matter of action. You're confusing two stories. The lost sheep that Jesus seeks has nothing to do with the division of the sheep from the goats. And we are all the children of God. No. He's on the subject of people who become "as little children" - not literal children. And yet you misunderstand a simple parable.(You're welcome to come and show your understanding of the Bible in the Bible Study forum. )

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

I'm sorry, but now you have me totally confused. You say He will turn His back, then you say He won't turn His back, and go and get the lost sheep? Not exactly. If your heart is in it, you will do the actions.But unlike the guys who said lord, lord, they were doing the actions, but their heart was not in it. Your confusing yourself.It is a matter of heart. To be in Christ, you must be with Christ.Being saved is not a one time declaration, it is a continuing process, a learning process, hopefully one that builds you up in your faith, and action. We make mistakes, and learn from them. God sends us to school, to learn His ways, once we start seeking Him. No, I am not confusing 2 stories.There were no goats. There was sheep. Sheep are people who believe already, and in the story, the sheep were the children. Sheep go to heaven remeber, not goats.If Jesus was talking about lost goats, then I would have to agree with you. Yes, we are all children of God, but some of us are just children, that is who he was talking about. He was specifying our responsibility to not let them get lost. No He's is not, it's time for bible 101.Let's take it from the beginning of the chapter.

quote:

---

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

​

2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

---

He grabs a child and explains that you must humble yourself like one to get into heaven.So while He has the child, He goes on to explain more about children(in the literal sense).

quote:

---

5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.

---

Little child like this. He is talking about children now, not becoming one.

quote:

---

6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

---

Now He explains what will happen to you if you mess with a child.

quote:

---

7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

---

Probably talking about child molesters here, and people who do harm to children, even their own parents who mis-treat them, and cause life long disorders.But make no mistake, He is talking about children, and the treatment there-of.

quote:

---

8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

---

So now, while still holding the child, He starts explaining wabout sin, and how bad it really is for you.

quote:

---

10"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.[a]

---

Now He still is holding a child in His arms, or by His side, and explains how they have angels in heaven watching them.He is not talking about an adult who is "like a child". He is talking about the treatment of children from adults.There is no-one there who has become like a child yet, that is why He is explaining to them how and why they should, using the child as an example. In the mean time, part of becoming "like a child" is to treat children well.You cannot become like a child if you are treating children bad. This is a bad sin, and it keeps you from God.Remember, since Jesus came, the curtain, or vail was torn in the temple, and you no longer have to go to the temple to find God. Your body is the temple, and you must treat it like one, so that the Holy Spirit may reside there.It's all about what is in your heart, that is where the Holy Spirit resides. That is where you will feel Him. I believe I have it quite clear. I have been in there a few times, but some of the subjects I am really not interested in getting into. What I have expressed in this forum, is worth more than anything else in the bible.It's about following Jesus, and treating your body like a temple.
You do this by Loving god, and loving others. When your ready for it, God will send the Holy Spirit to you, and then your life will change. But it's not the end, it's only the begining.If you don't know who god is, then you can't love Him, so I say this:
John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.The truth resides in you. But it's going to take some effort to get to it. Well at least it was for me. I was so covered up in lies, and deception, it made it very hard. So I had to go through a lot of bad things so that I may learn. Relatively speaking though it wasn't bad, but at the time I considered it bad. This made me realize what I told you in the other thread, how even the good, and the bad are from God, we just don't see the bad as actually being good. It all brings us to know Him. Or we can just keep explaining it away.

Okay, I'll type slower: the Shepherd turns his back on the ninety-and-nine which are not lost (the righteous). You claimed that He turns His back on those who reject Him - exactly the opposite. He specifically goes out to find the one which is lost - the one which has "rejected" Him.In the future, when we are all judged, then and only then will Jesus reject those who rejected Him. Until then, the rejectors have the inside track. To be in Christ, you must do what Christ wants you to do: love God and love thy neighbour as thyself. Those who say they are "with Christ" or "in Christ" (those who say "Lord, Lord") are the ones who are not "in Christ". They are the goats. What the #$%@ are you talking about? First you say there were no goats and then you say the goats don't go to heaven. The goats that don't exist?I said you were confusing the story of the lost sheep with the story of the sheep and the goats. Clearly you are. No. The ninety-and-nine are the righteous who do what is right:

quote:

---

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

---

(In the sheep/goats story, the sheep are also the ones who "do unto the least of these, my brothers". Doing, not believing.) Not necessarily "humble". You must be trusting like a child. It's all the same figure of speech. There's no sudden shift from figurative children to literal children. He's still talking about all the children of God. No. He's talking about all of the things that people do to each other. Why would you say that? How do you get that from the text?First, He says we must be like children to get into heaven. Then he goes on to talk some more about children. Where do you see a sudden break from figurative children to literal children? What verse? Have you ever met a child? The last thing that children do is treat other children well. But you've misunderstood it if you think it's about literal children.

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

*edit* Wait stop! readd all my replys before you reply! Provided they were sheep in the first place, and provided they are children such as the one He was holding. That's what I meant. I am not confusing the 2, but I am belnding the 2. Clearly Jesus makes the comaprison between goats and sheep. In His story, He qualifies the children as sheep, because they are going to heaven. Thay are innocent, and get a free ticket in. That is why we must be like them.If you choose not to follow His ways, and you are an adult capable of make rational decisions, then you are not a sheep. I don't believe He will go look for you. But I also do not think that He will ignore you totally.We are all learning from life, whether we know Him or not. I believe all things eventually point to Him. You can believe in God, and still do wrong, we all do.The one who got lost, already believed, and had a faith. He was with the 99, then got lost.The story doesn't say He was walking with the 99, and then saw a stray sheep over the hill, and He left His herd to get Him, and make it a part of His herd.Luke 15:7 means that when you are part of the 99, then go a stray, it is because you were once righteous, and now need repentance, to get back with God.You are using Luke, and I am using Matthew, which maybe different. Luke does not mention about the children like the way Matthew does.So it would seem to me, after just realizing this, that the sheep, can be either children or adults, but they are sheep, not goats.Do you think there may have been 2 separate times He used the lost sheep parable? Or was Luke's interpretation, and Matthews from the same day? The NIV says humble, go argue with them.
But maybe the Greek word could have more than one meaning, so it may be trusting as well. We are all children of God.
In order to get into heaven, you need to be like the literal child, not the figurative child of God.If we are all children of God, then why does he say some will go, and some won't?He is trying to explain the difference in Matthew. He has in other parts of the bible, but I don't think so here. He is getting into specifics about treating children. From the first one. He is holding a child.I explained it already.First he points at the child, and says you must be like one, then He explains what you should not do to one.What value is it in teaching people who don't believe in God, to treat people who do believe in God, well?He wants everyone to believe, and He is explaining how. What's that have to do with how I interpreted it?I said He wants us as adults to treat children well.
Not let them get lost. Possibly, but what I am saying is not incorrect either.We should treat children well, they are innocent, and naive. There is a separation from how we treat the literal child, and the figurative one. We should not treat full grown adults like little children because they believe in God. The difference being that full grown adults are capable of making decisions on their own, and suffering the consequences. This doesn’t mean we should judge or not love each other.Tell me this, how do you look at a child molester? What is you opinion of one? Isn't it a horrible crime, much worse than others?Of course you do, you know it's true because the Holy Spirit is telling you it is true. Being in touch with that feeling, is to be in touch with the truth, the Spirit of truth.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 03-29-2006 07:58 AM

A little sidebar about being like a child to get into heaven.It is the innocent, the humble, the naive, pure attitude that gets you in. You have had very little experience with the world, and you have not yet been tainted by it's ways, or grown into patterns of unGodlyness.We all get programed by the world, some of it good, and some of it bad. The good and the bad may bring you to know God, but it is only with God's help can we shed the actual effects that the bad did to us.People can go to phsycologists and claim they have worked through it, but it is still there, they are just dealing with it. God can liberate you from those things, and cleans you of them, so they are no longer an issue. It brings you back into being like a child.Ever see the movie Mr.Deeds? When he was giving that speech to all the share holders and making them remember when they were a child. He says I bet if the child you were could meet you now, he would kick your ass.

I have a NIV study bible. I think the problem we are having here is that I am using Matthew, and you are using Luke.In the study notes in Matthew, it says that Luke uses the same story, but in Luke's instance He is refering to unbelievers, and in Matthew He is rfering to believers.Jesus uses the same parable to teach different truths in different situations.Then in the study notes of Luke, it saysGod's concern and joy at the sinners repentance are set in stark contrast to the attitude of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law.(righteous do not need to repent) Probably irony: those that think they are righteous (such as the Pharisees and the teachers of the law) and feel no need to repent.Maybe we are both right?

Okay. Done that. No. Literal children may get a "free ticket in" because they have not yet learned right from wrong. But all of the sheep are not literal children. All of us who "do unto others" are sheep and all of us who "do not unto others" are goats. This is your main problem.In the shepherd/sheep story, the shepherd does go looking for the sheep. That's in the present. That's what's happening today. God comes looking for you - you don't have to go looking for poor little lost God.The sheep are not literal children. They are all of us.In the sheep/goats story, the tense is future. The sheep will be separated from the goats based on their behaviour.Again, neither the sheep nor the goats are literal children.Two different stories. Your "blending" is inappropriate. Doesn't it?We are all God's children. We are all God's sheep (in the shepherd/sheep story ).We are all part of the hundred. It's just that some of us are the ninety-and-nine and some of us are the lost one.There are no other gods (shepherds). There are no other "stray" sheep belonging to another flock. I expect Jesus used the same parables more than once. I don't know if we can tell from the text whether Matthew and Luke were refering to the same incident.But the account in Luke doesn't mention any children before the parable - which is why I don't see how the children and the sheep can be the same story. Why would Luke omit the first part of the story? Been there, done that. Don't much like the New Improved Version. Here again, we have to remember that there is more than one gospel (if only one Gospel).Mark and Luke use the same wording:

quote:

---

Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

---

quote:

---

Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

---

No mention of humility there. More like being "receptive".Matthew talks about humility:

quote:

---

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

---

But it isn't explicitly a requirement for entry into heaven. How can the humble be the "greatest" if there is nobody else to compare them to? He doesn't actually say that some won't go. God is not willing that any should perish.There don't necessarily have to be any goats. The point of the story is that you have to do what is right to find favour with God. "Believing" isn't enough. I don't see how it applies only to children. No, not incorrect. You're just applying narrowly to literal children what should broadly be applied to all the children of God. (And you're not a "literalist", eh? )

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

(sorry I'm not sure how to quote yet) I understand what your saying here, but I don't completely agree that because they beleived Jesus was the Son of God that their record would nessacarily be biased.It only would be if they (either intentionally or not) wrote down more than what was implied by what they had seen and heard.I'll just use "if" here to be hypothetical, even though I believe this definately happened.1If they really saw Jesus walk on water
2If they really saw people with supposedly permenant illnesses healed
3If they really saw him alive after his cruxifiction, and also ascending into heaven
I think those three things alone would be enough to say that he was the Son of God without worrying about being biased. Even without the old testament.(Psalm77:16-19(1,does the Lord have footsteps?),Isaiah35:5-6/10(2 "ransomed of the Lord"),Psalm68:18-20(3, God would have to desend to ascend),Now if they were telling outright lies it wasn't benifiting them any.because to confess Christ would mean getting kicked out of the synagouge, and even put your life in danger.But I will say that their isn't Christianity without faith, which isn't a bad thing. And I suppose since faith as defined by the Bible is "the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen". I think most people are more convinced by the evidence of things not seen, when they see a change in a person's life, then to hear the Bible is accurate. Or to see an overly-hypocritical,(and I say overly-hypocritical because I would say everyone is a hypocrite,excluding Jesus, to a small degree at least)is more damaging then to hear the Bible is inaccurate.I don't know many of the argument for or against the traditional belief of who the authors were unfortunatly, so I can't really say much there, I'll have to look into it.About the three verses about the dead rising, it could have been diffrent times but I would say it was all the same time. If it's a diffrence like "because you know not the scriptures" and he really said "knowing not the scriptures" I don't think it would be a mistranslation, especially since God's word is spiritual all three have the same signifigance spiritually,that the dead will rise, so to me it wouldn't be any reason to say they were not inspired.The errors that I mentioned were directly from the post I was responding to. I'm not saying their the errors that everyone here is talking about. Use the peek function to see what I used to make the quoteThis message has been edited by AdminJar, 03-31-2006 06:27 PM

If errors can be shown to exist in the Bible, as Berggren asserts, does it then follow that God, at least as an omnipotent Supreme Being, cannot exist?No. I don't believe that the Bible can possibly be relied upon to be error free regardless of who wrote it. Too many humans have messed with it over the years.And then there's the story about the birds of the air and the beasts of the field who do not labor yet God provides for them..... (not exact quote) Certainly not true. Birds and other animals work continually to secure food, territory and safety. Almost every day is a life or death struggle for them.

No. What follows is that the idea of the bible as the literal and inerrant word of God turns out to be wrong (as anyone with a little common sense should have realized anyway). That's a problem for some extremest cults, but it isn't a problem for true Christians.

Glad to hear some common sense man

The way it says it in the Bible makes it more clear

quote:

---

Luke12:24-28Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

---

The ravens don't store food, and if each day their isn't new food for them to eat they will die but they don't worry about it, I don't think it is saying that we should never save but just to realize if God makes it so there is food available for birds then why wouldn't he take care of his own children. And if he cares enough about the grass to give it beautiful flowers then he has something better for us. Because for us if we gave a girl pretty flowers she would probably be pretty happy, or she might be anyway, but God gave them to the grass so his concept of giving is a little bit higher.This message has been edited by Rainman2, 04-10-2006 08:47 PM

Thanks that is nicely put about the ravens. The point is taken that God asks we not be so concerned with life that we forget to simply live (trust). The idea is to set aside the concerns of personality for in so doing is salvation. I've always believed that. The thing I don't care for are the overbearing fire-brand types who are heavily involved with their own personality demands.Cool DudeJman

It's a great lesson from Jesus, if you read on it says to not worry about what you will eat, drink or wear; but to "seek first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness". And that if someone does that "all these things will be added unto you". But it's not always good to classify people as types, you have to take each case seprately, some people who might be considered intolerant are saying what they do out of genuine concern and some for pride and contention, which is what the Bible says anyway in Phil1:15 So your right, but sometimes people overgeneralize. A really extreme example would be: The theif was wearing a green shirt/everyone wearing a green shirt is a theif. Kind of the basis for racism, I don't know if there is alot in CA. but it's not non-existant here. (Our pastor preaches against it though)We live by trusting in God, and God gives food to the ravens and flowers to the grass, but to us (besides everything else) he gives, eternal life, forgivness of sin and the promise to listen to our prayer (not that he will always do what we want him to).