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Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
The Father hangs his son on a cross. His man-son. Pain, humiliation, torture, betrayal. His man-mother sits at the base of that cross and weeps as you did. For an eternal being who knew that his 'death' was only temporary, and that held be running about Israel again three days later, Jesus' sacrifice is intensely boring. A God cannot die, Jesus suffered for a paltry 3 hours on a cross, it is hardly inspiring. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Now imagine someone hammering a nail through your wrist and through the median nerve. What does this have to do with Jesus? Jesus apparently had nails driven through His hands: John 20: 24-16 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." So, a pretty useless piece of research Ian, maybe you should have read the Bible first. Unless the author of John got it wrong of course.
And then suspending you from it. You weren’t suspended from it, the nail through your feet enabled you to take the strain on your legs, that’s why the soldiers were going to break the crucified prisoners legs, this would cause the weight of the upper body to push down on the chest and suffocate the victim. Sometimes the victim would have a little wooden plinth to rest their feet on, but eventually they got tired and suffocated, took an average of three days, makes Jesus’ 3 hours a bit wimpy to me.
Imagine designing a forearm knowing the pain that such violence would one day inflict on you. Don’t say much for the ID brigade. I bet Jesus was glad He got nailed through the hands.
Physically, temporally, Jesus could pay no more. Not only did he suffer the cross, but he suffered as a man who had been betrayed by one he called a friend. He knew who was going to betray Him even before Judas was born, so I don’t think He would have been that attached to the guy.
He was the subject of a patently unjust trial. We don’t know anything about His trial, the one recorded in the Gospels was historically impossible and polluted with propaganda such as the Barabbas fantasy.
Now imagine the torment caused by that evil act against you. Millions of people have faced similar ordeals in many countries around the world, difference is, Jesus was laughing up His sleeve because He knew it was only a temporary situation.
Imagine too, your own mother looking up at you and imagine the pain that the torture in her face would add to your suffering. Imagine a young child’s mother being taken into hospital one night and that child being told she was dead and he would never be seeing her again, no final kiss or cuddle, no chance to say cheerio. Jesus saw His mother again, boring.
Imagine doing it without protest. He didn’t do it without protest.
Willingly even. Imagine knowing about it beforehand and the terror of it causing you to sweat drops of blood and beg for your life. This is all pointless ot an eternal being, Jesus declared that He would be back in three days, he knew about it, even the Gospels say that. It was no big deal at all, in fact, given the circumstances, how can anyone be impressed?
Imagine not running away. Imagine Brian - for that is all you would be able to do. That’s all anyone can do.
Some man this man Jesus. Yeah, to con so many people took real guts.
Then there is the eternal God Jesus. ooh, another one, how many characters were in there?
One who enjoyed such perfect unity of relationship with his Father and his spirit that although 3 persons they are inseparable. Eternally inseparable. So inseparable that the Father could keep secrets from the Son!
"My God My God why have you foresaken me?" Except this was not what Jesus said.
Oh yes he can. You have just changed the definition of ”god’ , LOL, do you enjoy making things up?
God is spirit and you can't kill a spirit in the temporal sense of the word - they are created eternally and will last for eternity. “They”, what are you on about, there is only one God inChristianity, and that God is eternal and cannot die even for a second, if He could die for a second then He isn’t immortal, you are the one who says he cannot do anything contrary to His nature, yet you are happy to make things up about Him to suit your own purposes? However, one can die spiritually. We are talking about God here, an eternal being, we aren’t talking about our spirit.
Spiritual death ("on the day you eat of this apple") only means to be separate from a perfect relationship with God. Sin causes this separation. We were born in it and are born thus, spiritually dead, separated from God. This has nothing to do with the definition of ”God’. God is eternal and cannot die, if your God can die then He isn’t a God. Look, the Bible is clear that Jesus died on the cross, a simple straightforward claim.
Either we accept Jesus spiritual death on our behalf or die clutching our sin to ourselves. If the latter, then we too will suffer an eternal moments wrath poured out in fullest measure. Well its got to be better than Eastenders.
How long does a moments punishment last when you exist in eternity Brian. Very briefly I’d assume. Three hours on a cross compared having always existing is barely worth mentioning.
You don't know? Yeah I know, it would be very brief, negligible.
Then perhaps it would be wiser to hold on with the dismissal bit until you have a little more evidence. I have all the evidence I need to come to a sound conclusion. Jesus was no messiah, it is as obvious as the nose on my face. He fulfilled no messianic prophecies, He has no bloodline to David, and Israel was more suppressed than ever when Jesus ”died’.
Wiser still, avoid finding that evidence and choose the intellectual insult of not being able to know something about Gods ways. I know everything about God’s ways, after all, we humans invented Him, and it isn’t difficult to see what a poor job the evangelists have made of inventing Jesus life story. Brian
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Its all nice and fluffy Jar, but nothing like the Bible version.
Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
In your scenario, what hoop would you have God jump through before you were impressed? Let me think. What could God do to be forgiven for all the sins He has committed against mankind. Well, I can only think of one that would make up for God's atrocities over the centuries, but it beyond His power to do it. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
You really are confused.
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." I never said this was accurate, you were the one who said He was crucified through the wrist, I presented the verse to contradict your assertion. Are you saying that the evangelist was incorrect when he said Jesus was cricified through the hands?
We don’t know anything about His trial, the one recorded in the Gospels was historically impossible and polluted with propaganda such as the Barabbas fantasy. Quite straightforward. We don't know what happened at His trial because the reports we have are inaccurate. Now, if you wish to say that the doubting Thomas incident is inaccurate then that's up to you. I am just wondering why you are ignoring the Gospels. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
God was certainly feeling very guitly about something, why else would He try to make up for all the evil deeds He has done?
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Whats do you reckon would have been the everyday Hebrew word for the section of the body that joins the hand to the wrist? The bit through which the median nerve passes. The Hebrew word for hand is ”yod’, I have no idea if there was a different word for ”wrist’, but since the Gospel of John was written in Greek then the Hebrew is irrelevant.
Without googling it, what is the common English name today? Me I call that area my wrist. I call it my wrist as well, but what does this have to do with anything?
As I understand it, nailing a person through their hand would result in the nail ripping through fairly boneless, insubstantial hand flesh and working its way up and out between the bones of the fingers. This due to the weight of a body ill-supported by knees nailed in the crooked position. But, the wrists would be bound to the cross to stop this happening, the wiki article you cited from even explains this.
The support under the feet was sloped downwards too. This is contrary to everything I have read about crucifixion. I was under the impression that the wooden plinth was there to extend the life and suffering of the victim: The Lutterworth Bible Dictionary ’crucifixion’ page 185 Crucifixion was a form of punishment in the ancient world in which a person was suspended on a vertical shaft by being bound and/or nailed to it.
So as to ensure that the victim had to push against the nails pinning him there (presumably these were as strategically placed for maximum pain as those through the wrists) Do you have a reference for this Ian, as I said I have never heard of this form of crucifixion and would appreciate a reference thanks.
And maximise pain for much longer than you would were people with ripped-through hands to continually fall off their crosses. Being tied to the cross, plus having a plinth to stand on, would ensure the victims wouldn’t slide off. Since the Gospel of John was written in Greek, wouldn’t the author use the Greek word ”karpal’ if he meant the wrist? That word ”karpal’ looks very familiar, wonder where I have seen that before Brian
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
I didn't know He did that. Well, we all learn something new everyday. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Phat,
If there was some sort of celestial social work department, Yahweh would be put in jail long ago and all of His children taken into care. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Wouldn't the word karpal be a clue?
Anyway, this is all academic since we don't know how Jesus (or even 'if' for that matter) was crucified. There is nothing to say that He had to be crucified through the wrist. Imagine all those hundreds of thousands of images of Jesus on the cross all being inaccurate. Now that is worth pondering. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Maybe we could get some of the other gods in the Canaanite pantheon to do it?
But, since He isn't doing a very good job, and hasn't done so since He created us, we would be better off left alone. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4989 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi phat
Methinks we should be concentrating on the fact that He loves all of us and desires that none perish! If He really does desire this then none of us will perish and the faith v. works debate is redundant. Brian.
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