Salvation by faith and works : intellectually ridiculous?

What? Flying on a plane? Don't tell me you've never flown on a plane before AG.Or maybe it was something else that disgusted you. I'm off to bed so you have a portion of your time in this world to enlighten all here gatheredNight.

Could you be a little more specific about what it is that disgusted you AG. It is a serious charge your packing there and if I have the slightest notion that it is accurate then apologise and withdraw the comment or post I will.My gut reaction is to suppose you are misreading something.

You mean like this? But then how could anyone engage in a personal attack if they wanted to?PS: your boss got away with a parody of Randman a while back. So good apparently, it even made post of the month This message has been edited by iano, 20-Apr-2006 12:23 PM This message has been edited by AdminPD, 04-20-2006 07:56 AM

Ah memories. I remember my very first bible study. Like a rabbit caugt in the headlight I was (don't Ringo...it will belittle you not me my friend ) This stuff was dynamite.It still is.Right Ringo: verse 12 above. Children of God > conditional on something that not all of humanity does. How does "God is everyones Father" accomodate this?"God created us all > he is everyones father" is only the case if that is what he says. If he denys paternity then to which court do you appeal?Jesus addressed his disciples when he said "Pray like this: Our Father who art in heaven. Hallowed by thy name" He wasn't necessarily addressing all the disciples. Any of them for whom God was their father (who have 'fulfilled' the condition shown above) could naturally address their father thus.Anyone who wasn't could simply parrot the words.This message has been edited by iano, 20-Apr-2006 01:12 PM

A nice piece of logical work Kong. Good stuff.Of course, from a non-strawman saved-by-grace viewpoint we are faced with God predestining those who are to be saved. If they are predestined then God is going to call them before they die (whether a long time or a second before they do so). Similarily if the are not going to be called then the same applies. There is no close shave about it if it was sure to happen in the first place.

Whilst agreeing with God waiting with open arms to receive anyone who returns I disagree with your analysis John 1:12The parable is just that. A story to illustrate a point. The point being God wants that none should perish and not only looks out for us, not only leaves a trace of inextinguishable knowledge of his love, not only runs to us as soon as he sees our having turned - but gives in abundance when we do turnThese are all ideas amply covered elsewhere in scripture so are resonable to extract. But against a plain teaching on fatherhood being conditional is there more to offer.Turning means we are given the right to become children of God in John 1:12. The opposite is implict: No turning no right. But a person who is already a son doesn't need rights to become a son. He already is one.When the Pharisees were told that they were of their father Satan did that mean that they were also children of God?Paul also decribes our position w.r.t. God prior to turning as enemies. But the prodigal son parable doesn't allow that. The son there was never considered an enemy

Whats do you reckon would have been the everyday Greek word for the bodily interface that joins the hand to the wrist? The bit through which the median nerve passes and which provides very painful, yet strong support if painfully suspending a person with nails was your goal.I gotta go Brian. Just this one to ponder on if that is your inclinationps: the account doesn't say anything about ropes although I agree that might be a variation used in other cases.This message has been edited by iano, 20-Apr-2006 06:04 PM

At the end of the day Kong, it comes down to what a mind can process and find reconcilation with. I may have mentioned recently but will do so again.I see no logical problem for God (who exists in a dimension called eternity for which we have no working model - only isolated attributes) to be able to do the following1: Create a being capable of making independant (if open to influence and information from outside parties) free choice.2. Know what the choce is before it is made but without ensuring which choice would be madeHence God foreknew. Adam chose. The flaw in our crying "impossible" is that we do not understand Eternity. Without insight into its mechanisms we are faced with a black box. We might decide work with the signals the black box outputs and in doing so decide to set aside our desire to fully satisfy the intellect. We cannot cry "impossible" only "incomprehensible"A very similar issue arises with God pre-destining vs. mans free choice. Your post was again nicely put together in terms of the conclusions it drew. However it only took into account 1 output from the black box. It failed to take account of the other output which overflows from the pages of the bible in both implicit and explicit terms."God wants that none should perish but that all would come to repentance""For God so loved the world he gave his only son so that whomsoever believed would not die but have eternal life""The gospel is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who beleives""But now a righteousness (necessary for salvation) from God is revealed....by faith from first to last"The more one investigates these two strands the better one comes to understand the mechanisms of the whole. The strands however, don't converge on a single, finally comprehensible point. They run in fact parallel the whole way down the line and a black box is the only destination one can arrive at (in this life at least).God puts out a general call to all mankind. I recognise now, his general call on me over all those years I was without him. The call of conscience, a troubled conscience, a satisfied conscience, the denial of conscience, the hardening of heart through that denial.His calling me causing me to respond but in my separatness and self-dependancy, this often meant going off in the wrong direction: reading Zen and the Art of motorcycle Maintenance or trying Transcendatal Meditation or.... And him using that error to show me that "my existance and destination and purpose" were actually more important questions than I had hitertoe considered them to be - that there was more to life than simple blatant (and not so blatant) self-gratification.Then more rebellion. The issues raised by his calling thus and the issues raised by his call through limitless seas, vast star-filled nights and notional (if flexible) agreement with the principle of "Love thy neighbour" caused me to clampdown on that call. I didn't understand what the call was trying to tell me but it made me feel uncomfortable. It told me that there was something amiss with the notion that I was independant and on my own in the world (a fledgling thought but fully manifested regarding unrestrained self-serving behaviour). What was amiss was that being on my own in the world would mean I was in the end of it all - insignificant. But I also knew I wasn't insignificant.Predictably the way of dealing with this discomfort, this Ying/Yang, this Good/Evil this Black/White... was to bury the feeling. One has to do pretty extreme things in an attempt to bury it. And I did them. And he let me do them. And he inserted them all into his formula marked "call Iano" But he persisted in calling: probing at the areas of my heart which my actions hadn't got around to hardening to his call. Like the Prodigals Sons father, he was ever looking out for me, ever wanting me back.The tension rose and rose, the actions to harden more extreme and ludicrous (I read other attempts here all the time). The harder my heart got, the more the soft bits protested at being evermore squeezed and silenced by their closer proximity to the hard.At last I could bear it no more and sought release. I turned and found him standing at the top of the hill, arms outstretched in joy and calling to his servants to slaughter a fatted calf. I remember it as a great party - even if most of it went by in a bit a whirl. Life has settled down now a bit but it still feels great to be homeGod knew I would turn but it always remained my choice whether to bear the pressure or not.Thus one might conclude that if a man is saved then God has done all the work. If he is lost then he will have done it to himself. There will be nobody in hell who doesn't deserve to be there. That would be unjust. Similarily, there will be nobody in heaven who deserves to be there because it was only his ummerited grace that brought them there.I don't know if that clarifies. It is a black box and the above is as far down the tracks as I have gotten. I'll find out one day I'm sure so not knowing now isn't such a big deal to meedit: change god not influencing choice (he did: don't eat) to non ensuring choice.This message has been edited by iano, 21-Apr-2006 11:50 PM

"in to the fight and to the rescue came"Night Buzz. Nice makin' your aquaintence

Would any faith+works=slavation adherant like to get back to dealing with the OP?

Agreed (pre-destination notwithstanding) Agreed. Note 'says to me' here because your next sentence.... whilst... "says to" (conversing) and "call on" (beseechs) are not the same thing. Sound familiar? That would be an understatement if you stayed around here for a while.Question about Matthew 25 for you, which I haven't ever got an answer for here yet. Is this description of the actions of the sheep a cause of them being saved or a consquence of them having been saved?
IOW: is the fact that they did good works result in their salvation or is it that they were saved (by calling on the name of the Lord) and as a result of that did good works - the works being a consequence of salvation declared by God in his public declaration (demonstrating to all assembled his justice)The faith alone viewpoint is that good works will necessarily follow as a result of the action of God who now dwells withing the believer. eg:

No he doesn't. He says "faith without works is dead" If there are no works then the faith is dead. It isn't faith. If there are works then there is faith. Works are a marker for faith. If one has faith one will have works. Works a consequence of faithThat is faith alone position:If saving faith > works WILL follow. "Work it out" might make one think that we have to "figure it out". It doesn't. It means "express it (out)" It means "let the fact of your salvation be worked out of you. God is working in you to will and to act so work (express) out what he is working into you""With fear and trembling". It doesn't say craven fear. It can mean with awe, wonder, humility. Fear and trembling can be even pleasurable. Take a roller coaster ride or experience sexual excitement

Btw: any view on the situation in the OP smak?

That all very well Ringo. But there isn't any Biblical warrant for it. Except if one takes an a la carte view to what constitutes Gods word as you appear to do.

Biblical warrant for Ringos version Hell as a continum: Salvation for all means saved from something. Hell presumably. Whatever, this isn't biblical backup for hell being a continum its 'backup' for universal salvation from something. What about the concept of a wrathful God. Are those pages cut out of your bible too. If one takes the whole book then his wrath is referred to far more that his love.Take Pauls (not the word of God in your view IIRC) talking of "the wrath of God is poured out upon all the ungodliness and wickedness of man"?