What Does the Second Coming Entail?

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God cannot simply magic-wand forgive. He must take the financial hit. He must pay for your offence.

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Why not? your christian god should be able to do it - I don't understand this concept of him paying - in what sense is he paying for it? How can something infinite and all-powerful "pay" in any meaningful fashion?

I'm even more baffled now - your christian god is still paying the price because 2000 years ago, he came down and got a avatar of his nailed to a piece of wood. The creator of the universe is still "paying" for that event?And by not obeying him in a universe in which he created and all the rules - this causes him to somehow still "pay"? An infinite creator who creates a whole universe and associated reality finds something meaningful in being nailed to a piece of wood?I must confess the more people explain the various christian gods to me - the less they makes sense (as a concept let alone a system of belief).I know you like analogues - this is how that appears to a none-believer.Bob builds and opens a nightclub.He then invites you to the nightclub and when you get there, Bob says "boy this is an expensive nightclub - but hey let me show you how I care, I'll pay for you to get in". He then proceeds to take some money out of the cash-register and then makes a big show of putting it back in - he "pays" for you.Bob then spends all of his time reminding you that he paid for you to get into the nightclub. He also gets his friends to do the same. Bob says because of this, you should be grateful and do him favours. You all know that bob owns the nightclub and therefore actually hasn't paid anything at all and that he just took the money out of the till and then just put it back in.Edited by CK, : added analogue.

Heh - I know it's seems mocking but I a) know that Iano likes analogues and b) am trying to contextualise his response as they seem to me as a atheist.In some ways - that's why Islam seems to be a bit more straight forward, they do not have to overcome the conceptual hurdle of explaining all of this "the most powerful thing ever ever came to earth and was nailed to a piece of wood and it matters for some very complex reasons". Their god is straight forward "I am the main man - obey me or else" - as least it's simple!Edited by CK, : Changing title.

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I'm not head of a dominion, Adam wasn't head of a dominion, but -most importantly- God is above any dominion, God makes the rules.
So it's not about dominion

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Indeed - how could Adam be head of a dominion? Before the fall, there was no sex, there were no children, there was no race, it appears from the bible that Adam and eve were immortal and would carry on forever - surely mankind could only have the potential to exist once they fell?how could Adam be responsible for something that never had the potential to exist until reality was changed by the act of eating an apple?EDIT - and now I think about it - how can Adam be responsible for a race that he has no concept or understanding of. It's like saying George Bush should take into the account, the effect of his actions on the multi-headed zhatgebeast. A creature he's never heard of, has never seen and at that moment doesn't exist.Edited by CK, : typo - he becauses theEdited by CK, : No reason given.

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Eternity = timeless. Time = seconds elapsing one after the other. If I sin now, he suffered in paying for it then - for it was known then that I would sin now and that I would come to him in order that he might pay for it. It raises the (useful) spectre of my sin now contributing to his pain then( not on-the-cross-physical pain but the spiritual pain of separation from his Father). The fact that I love and know that he suffered/suffers for me means that I listen to him when he tells me to avoid sinning. Not that he does this to avoid suffering he will take whatever I cause - but to avoid me having to live with me doing that to someone I love

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So Sin is a control mechanism by your God?It still makes little or no sense - your God seems a very odd character, he makes a flawed creation which has the end result of causing him constant pain. All this he must have known before he started.

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You can assert his making a flawed creation til the cows comes home CK. That he knew it would become so does not mean he made it so. Yamaha made a perfect Fazer 1000. Iano, the one who has dominion over it made it into a scuffed Fazer 1000 about 6 weeks ago when he choose to enter a corner at a speed higher than he knew was sensible. I knew there were consequences for acting outside the limits of my tyres grip. I didn't know exactly what they would be. As it was I got off lightly. Adam didn't

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You example is flawed - for it to work, the chairman of yamaha should doubleover in pain when you came off your bike and also he would have to have know in advance, that building the bike and it being sold to you would have resulted in that pain in advance.You keep trying to shift this to Adam and I fail to see where Adam ties into creation.

sounds awfully like Hank. Edited by CK, : typo.

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n the Bible (as in life), light corresponds to goodness and darkness corresponds to evil. God has no darkness in him and so it is impossible for him to do something evil.

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Well there you have it - all the following is good.

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Deuteronomy 7:1-2: "... the seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them."

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Joshua 6:21: "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

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Joshua 10:40-41: "So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon."

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Deuteronomy 2:26-35 - Land of Heshbon "...we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

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Exodus 12:29-30: "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."

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Who wants to buy a bridge? I've got one for sale, one previous owner.Oh wait I forgot the time God sent some bears to rip 42 children into shreads because they'd called someone baldly.

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2 Kings 2:23-24: "And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

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The bear story always interests me - it doesn't say he asks the lord for protection or the like but that he cursed them in the name of the lord.Then to show his love, he had some bears rip out their guts!

How does the individual engage in an authoritative action or process when he is acting on his own?

em... yes thanks! You wanted the guy above me I thinks......

odd how my version says:

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Many dogs surround me; a pack of evildoers closes in on me. So wasted are my hands and feet that I can count all my bones.

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I have seen other versions where it's translated in other ways.like here:Forbiddenand later it says

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And I will live for the LORD; my descendants will serve you.

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So the De Vinci code is real and the bloodline did continue!Edited by CK, : No reason given.Edited by CK, : No reason given.

*blink* *blinks again*.I've seen some doublespeak on those boards but that surely is one of the finest examples I've every seen. This in particular is wonderful: Is this another example of "oh the bible is literal except em..for those bits which are clearly not meant to be literal".

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Jer 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.

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The mind boggles at the mental gymastics that are required to turn that into

keen and regular viewers will notice that Iano is keen to shift this side conversation from what the bible explictly says about god to a different conversation about "Man", "man's sin" and "man's action".What conclusions can we drawn from the fact that he does seems unwilling to engage with the actual discussion about the text of his own religious book? So what about rest of you? Do you see 5 fingers where there are only 4?

I must confess of all the discussions we have here, those are the most fascinating as they reveal the most about the underlying cognitive processes of the more literal believers:We always start with the concept that the bible is straight forward and the message is relatively easy to get (if we really want to).We always start with the concept that the bible is literal and the word of god.Then at some stage, someone will introduce a section of the bible that involves God (not man, not jesus not anyone else - the big boss, the big cheese) saying something directly such as "I XXXXXXXXXXXXX".At this stage the literal believer will say "ah that's straight forward" and then... will provide a complex explanation that either totally avoids the issue or involves reversing the meaning of a word.In this example we are expected to understand that "bring" means "absence of" and that it's meant as a commentary on some aspect of man's actions - even when the verse clearly indicates it's GOD that is being discussed.All the time the believer maintains that this is a literal reading of the text, although it is clearly an interpretation!Edited by CK, : fixing tags - and I have to notice - I never made "bring" a yellow box...... maybe God is trying to signal something to our literal chums!!!