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Author | Topic: IC & the Cambrian Explosion for Ahmad...cont.. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Quetzal Member (Idle past 5901 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Hybrid? Not likely - Cryptogale is extinct, and is considered representative of the ancestral (not necessarily the ancestor) form of the Tenrecomorpha. Both the Tenrecinae and the Oryzorictinae are highly derived (i.e., modern versions with specific and distinctive changes). They didn't live at the same time. The point is that Cryptogale is intermediate in morphology between higher-level taxonomic groupings - which creationists claim is impossible, and would apparently be impossible under the MPG idea. Which, of course, is why I asked whether Cryptogale represented the MPG of the Tenrecomorpha...
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Peter B,
quote: So we agree our terms, then? Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7694 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
Hi Mark,
In message #65 you say: "A transitional is a form that possesses characters, or character states that are part way between two separate taxa.? " PB: Is this your definition of a TF? Best wishes,Peter
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Peter B,
quote: I have amended it to be: "A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa." Any evo's disagree, or would like to make an addition? Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with. [This message has been edited by mark24, 02-14-2003] [This message has been edited by mark24, 02-14-2003]
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7694 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
Hi Quetzal
Interesting stuff. Can you show me the fossils/figures? Couodn't find them on internet. TiA. Best wishes,Peter
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5901 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
For this one I think you'll have to go to a library and check out a recent edition of Caroll's "Vertebrate Paleontology". I'm not sure what is available on line, if anything. You might try a search for phylogeny Afrotheria Tenrecomorpha.
However, the question I asked is a simple yes or no: based on what you've been told, scientists classifiy Cryptogale as a transitional. Does it represent a MPG, thus falsifying common descent under your scenario?
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7694 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
Dear Quetzal,
Q: For this one I think you'll have to go to a library and check out a recent edition of Caroll's "Vertebrate Paleontology". I'm not sure what is available on line, if anything. You might try a search for phylogeny Afrotheria Tenrecomorpha. PB: At last we find a TF and it is not even a Nature paper? How peculiar. Probably nothing transitional here, but a lot of speculation. However, I will check it out. Thanks for the ref. Best wishes,Peter
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Peter,
Do we agree terms, or what? Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7694 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
Dear mark,
You say: I have amended it to be: "A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa." Any evo's disagree, or would like to make an addition? PB: I am waiting for the general agreement of evo's. Furthermore, I am afraid that we also have to define 'character', 'taxa', 'mix' and 'discrete characters'. And "part between" is very, very vague. Let's define it too. Best wishes,Peter
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Peter,
quote: Does any evo have any criticism of the following definition & defined terms? Comments welcome, even looks good to me is appreciated "A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa." Character: The physical state of a part of the organism whilst it was living. Discrete character: The existence of a separate & distinct physical state as part of the organism. Describing an on/off condition rather than a variable one. Taxa: Biological classification of organisms forming a nested hierarchy of ranks. Any rank is relevant from Kingdom to species. Mix: A combination of. Part way: A condition between two extremes. Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: I would say that the lack of an earlier response indicates general agreement, but then that's just my definition of 'general agreement'. The only thing I might add is that usually a TF shows up in the fossil record at an appropriate time to be a transitional. I'm not sure if this is crucial to the discussion at hand, but it is a factor that creationists usually have a hard time explaining and would rather ignore.
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derwood Member (Idle past 1905 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
Sounds OK to me.
I am still waiting for empirical evidence of the existence of creatons and morphogenic fields, myself...
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Thank you gentlemen, Mr Borger, do you agree?
Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7694 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
dear Mark,
Go ahead, make my day Peter
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Peter,
Do you agree with the definition? Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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