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Author Topic:   A question of numbers (one for the maths fans)
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 31 of 215 (325191)
06-23-2006 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Modulous
06-23-2006 2:21 AM


Re: Saucy numbers
You can't subtract a recurring .9 because if you went to write it out, you would never reach the end. So you would never finish writing the equation, can't be done logically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Modulous, posted 06-23-2006 2:21 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ikabod, posted 06-23-2006 6:35 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 36 by RickJB, posted 06-23-2006 6:43 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 40 by Modulous, posted 06-23-2006 7:35 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 32 of 215 (325192)
06-23-2006 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by riVeRraT
06-22-2006 11:14 PM


Re: infinities work fine
Ok, and apologies for not having the requisite mathematical symbols to do this more cleanly
0.99r is a representation for sum(9/10n) for all n in Z+.
9.99r is the same sum but for n in Z+0
It is quite clear then that the only element in the sequence left after the subtraction is the one which corresponds to the n which is in Z+0 but not Z+, namely n=0, 9/100 = 9/1 = 9

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2006 11:14 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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ikabod
Member (Idle past 4523 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 33 of 215 (325194)
06-23-2006 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Modulous
06-23-2006 5:14 AM


opsss my bad ok i ment
0.999999999..... - 1 = 0.00000000000000000000000000000..~1
ok soon your working on following
.99999999999..... X 2.00000000000........ = what ?
what is .9999999999999999......... X .9999999999999999999999........ ?
what is the square root of .9999999......
.99999 + .0001001001002 = ???
1/.999999.. = ??
and good old .99999999999.. + .10000000000000.. = ??

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 34 of 215 (325195)
06-23-2006 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by fallacycop
06-23-2006 3:34 AM


But what is to prevent us from subtracting all digits at once?
There is nothing "all" about infinity.
I do not agree with this:
Fraction proof
The standard method used to convert the fraction 13 to decimal form is long division, and the well-known result is 0.3333 . , with the digit 3 repeating. Multiplication of 3 times 3 produces 9 in each digit, so 3 0.3333 . equals 0.9999 . ; but 3 13 equals 1, so it must be the case that 0.9999 . = 1.
I also do not neccesarly think infinity actually can exist either. It's only a thought, not a number.
How can you subtract 0.9999... from 9.9999 digit by digit if the digits have no end? You will never solve the equation. The numbers have no end, therefor the equation has no end.
There is no acurate way to express 1/3 of 10 in decimals in a number system based on 10.
So if .9999...=1 then infinity does not exist. This only happens if the number is actually representing something.
Is it impossible for a number to not represent something?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by fallacycop, posted 06-23-2006 3:34 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
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ikabod
Member (Idle past 4523 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 35 of 215 (325196)
06-23-2006 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by riVeRraT
06-23-2006 6:10 AM


Re: Saucy numbers
yes but 1 is really 1.0000000.................. so you can do many maths as all numbers are a infinty.
abstract realities got to luv them .....
now what the real question is is what colour and flavour is .99999999.... compared to 1.000000000000000000...............

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 6:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 7:02 AM ikabod has replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 5020 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 36 of 215 (325199)
06-23-2006 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by riVeRraT
06-23-2006 6:10 AM


Re: Saucy numbers
2ice writes:
..can't be done logically
I'm no mathematician but I don't agree. Try flipping the subtraction around...
9.999.. - 9 = 0.999...
Now 9.999.. may be infinitely long, but we CAN know that the result will be exactly 9 less.
If we go back to the original
9.999.. -0.999... = 9
We CAN see that the number will be 0.999.. less. What's the problem?
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 6:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 7:00 AM RickJB has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 37 of 215 (325203)
06-23-2006 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dr Jack
06-23-2006 6:14 AM


Re: infinities work fine
Sorry, that math is beyond me.
It's not like I don't get why .9999...= 1, I do. I just don't agree with the math.
I can prove that 0.9999... = 1 also
1/3 of a circle with the circumference of 1 yard = 0.333333....
1 yard = 0.914400 meters
1/3 of 0.914400 = 0.3048
0.3048 meters = 0.33333....yards.
So 0.3333... is a whole number.
Now do it in reverse, and you will find that 0.99999=1
The real problem lies in that we do not have an accurate way of expressing 1/3 in decimals.
If 0.9999... is representing something in the universe, and our universe is infinate, then the number can go on, and on without ever being 1. If the universe is finate, then 0.9999... will eventually come to an end, then infinity only exists in our subjective minds.
That means that 0.9999.... = God.
Edited by riVeRraT, : clarity, if there is such a thing

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 38 of 215 (325205)
06-23-2006 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by RickJB
06-23-2006 6:43 AM


Re: Saucy numbers
We CAN see that the number will be 0.999.. less. What's the problem?
The problem is that you are using a finite symbol to represent infinity.
Try writing it out.
If you did, you'd find that 0.9999... does in fact equal 1, 1 dead person.
You'd also find out the infinity does not exist for us in the physical sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by RickJB, posted 06-23-2006 6:43 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by RickJB, posted 06-23-2006 8:12 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 59 by fallacycop, posted 06-23-2006 11:38 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 39 of 215 (325206)
06-23-2006 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ikabod
06-23-2006 6:35 AM


Re: Saucy numbers
Can you prove that 0.9999... even exists?
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ikabod, posted 06-23-2006 6:35 AM ikabod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ikabod, posted 06-23-2006 7:54 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 40 of 215 (325213)
06-23-2006 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by riVeRraT
06-23-2006 6:10 AM


yum yum
What is 6 - π
Can it be done?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 6:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 9:28 AM Modulous has replied

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4523 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 41 of 215 (325214)
06-23-2006 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by riVeRraT
06-23-2006 7:02 AM


Re: Saucy numbers
no numbers exsist .. they are a notational agreement between people ..
thus you can have x+y=n at the same time as having 1+2=3
go read 1984 then look in doing sums ..
btw the colour blue does not exsist its just a label for a wavelenght of light

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 7:02 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 9:31 AM ikabod has replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 5020 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 42 of 215 (325216)
06-23-2006 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by riVeRraT
06-23-2006 7:00 AM


Re: Saucy numbers
riverrat writes:
The problem is that you are using a finite symbol to represent infinity.
So what?
For any given number x it's possible to argue that:
y = 5-x
even if 0.999... is the given number x!
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 7:00 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2006 9:32 AM RickJB has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 43 of 215 (325234)
06-23-2006 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Modulous
06-23-2006 7:35 AM


Re: yum yum
Not sure, you are trying to solve for n?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Modulous, posted 06-23-2006 7:35 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 06-23-2006 9:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 44 of 215 (325235)
06-23-2006 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by ikabod
06-23-2006 7:54 AM


Re: Saucy numbers
btw the colour blue does not exsist its just a label for a wavelenght of light
Yes blue exists. We have had this discussion before.
Blue is not just a wavelength of light. It is how our brains interpret that wave length when viewed through our eyes. Which is a separate thing from the actual wave length of blue light.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ikabod, posted 06-23-2006 7:54 AM ikabod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ikabod, posted 06-23-2006 9:41 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 45 of 215 (325236)
06-23-2006 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by RickJB
06-23-2006 8:12 AM


Re: Saucy numbers
But that's what I am saying, 0.9999... is not a number.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by RickJB, posted 06-23-2006 8:12 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Dr Jack, posted 06-23-2006 10:19 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 49 by RickJB, posted 06-23-2006 10:38 AM riVeRraT has not replied
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