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Author Topic:   A question of numbers (one for the maths fans)
NosyNed
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Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 138 of 215 (326067)
06-25-2006 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by riVeRraT
06-25-2006 9:24 AM


last digit
Mod made an error in his reply mentioning a "zero" there won't be one.
and the last digit going from thousanths to hundreths. When we times an infinite amount of integrers, we only have one proof.
There is NO LAST DIGIT. We only write as many as is convenient to show what we mean. (0.9..., 0.99..., 0.999999... or whatever). They are all the same; an endless row of 9's.
I get it, trust me I do.
Trust me, you don't yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by riVeRraT, posted 06-25-2006 9:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

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 Message 140 by riVeRraT, posted 06-25-2006 10:29 AM NosyNed has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 143 of 215 (326074)
06-25-2006 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by riVeRraT
06-25-2006 10:29 AM


Talking about math
I get it, believing .999... = 1 requires a leap of faith.
Nope, not this time. This time we are dealing with math and we do prove things.
There is no faith. The proof has been shown to you. You do, indeed, not get it.
You cannot use the word "all" to describe infinity, What is all + 1 ?
This was answered many posts ago. It is still all.
However, here we aren't talking about an infinite quantity (this was pointed out to you before too). We are talking about a representation of a finite quantity that has an infinite number of digits in it.
Edited by NosyNed, : fixed spelling

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 Message 140 by riVeRraT, posted 06-25-2006 10:29 AM riVeRraT has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 165 of 215 (326108)
06-25-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by riVeRraT
06-25-2006 11:46 AM


Resolving
Why does .999... resolve to a 1, and .333... never resolve?
They both resolve.
.9 is not equal to 1.
.99 is not equal to 1 but it is closer.
.999 is not equal to 1 but it is closer yet.
.9999 is not equal to 1 but it is still closer.
.999999999999999999 is not equal to 1 but it is very close indeed.
.9... (the ... means an endless row of 9's. We need to be VERY careful with our notation) IS equal to 1 the difference is now zero.
.3 is not equal to 1/3
.33 is not equal to 1/3 but is closer.
.333 is not equal fo 1/3 but it is pretty close.
.3... is equal to 1/3
You may think there is a diffence because the first case is a whole number (1) and the second is a fraction (1/3). That doesn't make a difference to what we are talking about.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 166 of 215 (326110)
06-25-2006 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by riVeRraT
06-25-2006 12:37 PM


That annoying zero
Just like 10*.999... = 9.999...0
We drop the zero, or we never put it there, because there is no end.
Mod should not have mentioned a zero way back there. You are correct when you say we never put it there because there is no end. There is also no 8 on the end because there isn't an end there.
You might say that 2* 0.9 is 1.8 because 0.9 is 0.1 less than one and you end up doubling the missing bit less than one. 2 * .99 is 1.98 when you double the missing bit (now we re .02 less than 2).
2 * 0.9... (endless 9's) is equal to 2 because there isn't any "missing bit" to double.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 180 of 215 (326130)
06-25-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by kuresu
06-25-2006 12:52 PM


some clarification please
reason being, is that .499 . . . is not half of .999 . . .
"is not" is a bit unclear.
0.49... = 0.9... / 2 does it not?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 182 of 215 (326133)
06-25-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
06-25-2006 1:05 PM


.99... = 1 and .33... not = .4 why
Others have answered this but I'm not sure they got the point across.
.9 is 1/10 different from 1, or 0.1
.99 is 1/100 different or 0.01
.999 is 1/1000 different or 0.001
.999999 is 1/1000000 different or 0.0000001
Notice as I add 9's on the end the difference is getting very very small.
With unending 9's the difference is zero.
.3 is 0.1 different from .4
.33 is 0.07 different from .4
.333 is 0.067 different from point 4
.3333 is 0.0667 different
.33333 is 0.06667 different
Notice that the difference is NOT getting very small.
ABE the difference is not getting closer to zero it is getting closer and closer to 0.06666...
Edited by NosyNed, : a little more explanation

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 183 of 215 (326134)
06-25-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by kuresu
06-25-2006 1:35 PM


Precision
I am dumb! I still don't get it.
I define precision to be the number of digits I have.
In addition you meant I presume, Technically ... does not equal .999... divided by 2 is what you meant.
The precision of all the numbers you give is infinite in that they are all repeating .
Thus 0.4999... is exactly equal to 0.5. So if half of .99999... is .5 it is also equal to 0.4999...
Let me try the division:
2 into .9 is 0.45
2 into .99 is 0.495
2 into .999 is 0.4995
and so on giving us
2 into .999 is 0.4999...
Can you explain where I am confused?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 186 of 215 (326143)
06-25-2006 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by kuresu
06-25-2006 1:51 PM


Re: Precision
It isn't helpful here. It is important not to confuse things any more than they are.
But of course we would use 0.5 almost all the time.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 205 of 215 (326572)
06-26-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by riVeRraT
06-26-2006 5:26 PM


Is 1 finite?
Yes

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