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Author Topic:   How the geo strata are identified as time periods
Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 46 of 101 (344774)
08-29-2006 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jazzns
08-29-2006 3:40 PM


Re: Igneous ROcks
Hi Jazzns,
A couple things in the first para looked funny to me, are these what you really meant to say?
Jazzns writes:
Settling does have much to do with layers forming.
Did you mean to say, "Settling *doesn't*..."
It just does not seem to call the creation of the other rock types by that name.
Huh? Maybe "right" should have appeared after "seem"?
--Percy

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 Message 45 by Jazzns, posted 08-29-2006 3:40 PM Jazzns has replied

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 47 of 101 (344781)
08-29-2006 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Percy
08-29-2006 3:54 PM


Re: Igneous ROcks
Yes. How very sloppy and unclear of me.
To clarify, how things settle does matter when talking about sedimentary rocks. Where the particles settle, how far and under what conditions they travel, what medium they are suspended in originally, how fast they go, all matter in the formation and identification of sedimentary rocks.
I am not sure how this really relates to the discussion though because how things "settle" does not really play too much into what age it is given AFAIK.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 08-29-2006 3:54 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Coragyps, posted 08-29-2006 4:17 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 48 of 101 (344784)
08-29-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
08-29-2006 8:56 AM


Principles of identifying a layer and time
Reading back in the thread and I caught this.
So I'm curious how geologists correlate the information from one set with others in such a way that a worldwide deposition of strata can be reliably identified as representing periods of time -- periods of time that can be tracked everywhere even if the characteristics of the strata are appreciably different.
See, maybe naively, I just thought that people with some geology background would simply know the main principles of how this is done off the top of their heads, and have examples in mind to illustrate it.
I did actually answer this in my first post when I talked about absolute dating. Maybe we will get there again so we can go deeper into it.
First and foremost a given layers is examined in comparison to other layers above it and below it that can be absolute dated.
Index fossils, which you seem to be curious about, do help but often the identify a very wide span of time that that particular fossil is present. For example, if you find a trilobite you know you are looking at the bottom quarter of the column. From there you can look at other factors to confirm and correlate with that such as absolute dating.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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 Message 25 by Faith, posted 08-29-2006 8:56 AM Faith has replied

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 Message 53 by Faith, posted 08-29-2006 5:29 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 764 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 49 of 101 (344785)
08-29-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Jazzns
08-29-2006 4:07 PM


Re: Igneous ROcks
I am not sure how this really relates to the discussion though because how things "settle" does not really play too much into what age it is given AFAIK.
But it can have a great deal to do with determining how quickly the rock formed, and under what conditions. A shale with individual grains all under a micron in size won't be able to form at all in significant turbulence: the particles will never settle. Diatomaceous earth or a limestone made entirely of coccolithophorids is much the same, and also have to wait on the critters they're made from to live, die, and settle to bottom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Jazzns, posted 08-29-2006 4:07 PM Jazzns has replied

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 50 of 101 (344788)
08-29-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Coragyps
08-29-2006 4:17 PM


Re: Igneous ROcks
Sometimes yes it can help lean you one way or another if a fine grained layer is reasonably thick or thin.
You have to be careful though because the thickness could be because of time or relative density of the particles and I am not sure if you can distinguish between the two. Maybe a real geologist could speak up but we may be getting to specific for this thread.
We really need to get to absolute dating to properly address the OP.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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 Message 49 by Coragyps, posted 08-29-2006 4:17 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2543 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 51 of 101 (344791)
08-29-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jazzns
08-29-2006 3:40 PM


Re: Igneous Rocks
Settling does have much to do with layers forming. It is just isolated to sediment or ash falling out of suspension. It just does not seem to call the creation of the other rock types by that name.
okay, got it. (abe: just saw percy's questioning what you said, and your "oops". But now I'm a little confused--the argument between Jazznz and Coragyps. As far as layer formation is concerned, how much does the settling of particles have to do with determining that layer's age?)
learn something new everyday--for whatever reason, I had thought granite was sedimentary. makes much mor sense for it to be igneous. considering how durable it is.
1)is a single layer uniform. By this, I mean: is a layer all of one material, or can it be composed of other materials, like, say, extrusive rocks?
2)I think I get what you mean about it being difficult to have intrusive igeous being a part of a layer. Then, can the batholiths and plutons (I think I know what they look like--quick check though--sort of like the magma chamber in a volcano?) be used to help dating.
3)How are extrusive rocks used to help date? Is it just by being used as a reference point, like, you know A is before J, but not how long before? Or, is it possible to also use it for absolute dating--where you know exactly how long A is before J?
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Jazzns, posted 08-29-2006 3:40 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 52 of 101 (344803)
08-29-2006 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Percy
08-29-2006 11:58 AM


accusations
Percy, you ARE accusing me, both of seeking debate and seeking offense, and this is false and unfair. I told you I was answering the question. I had to correct my earlier answer. THis is not seeking a debate, this is answering questions, and I was claer about that. Jar asked a bunch of totally irrelevant questions instead of addressing the OP and I answered them and had to correct one of my answers. STOP ACCUSING ME!!! Jar's questions wanted to know if I could agree with his list of propositions. Well I don't agree with them. What do they have to do with the OP anyway? Why don't you call jar on his hijacking of this thread?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 101 (344812)
08-29-2006 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jazzns
08-29-2006 4:17 PM


Re: Principles of identifying a layer and time
Thank you Jazz for actually addressing the questions in the OP and to the others who have done so as well. Your answers are sensible but too general for what I had in mind. I think really there is no answer to my question. I want to be able to visualize this process for all locations on earth and I need to be able to get a sense of the actual process in some specific locations to get an idea of it, but really, I think I was asking too much, and maybe it's a good thing this thread has become a basic geology course instead.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jazzns, posted 08-29-2006 4:17 PM Jazzns has replied

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 54 of 101 (344826)
08-29-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by kuresu
08-29-2006 4:38 PM


Re: Igneous Rocks
As far as layer formation is concerned, how much does the settling of particles have to do with determining that layer's age?
The only thing that settling may be able to tell you is some very rough information about how long it may have taken that particular layer to have formed. The best example is using a very fine grained sedimentary rock. Superfine sediment does not tend to stick around on land so it almost always ends up in a large body of water as wind and water runoff carry it down. As long as the water is agitated though, the very fine particles of sediment will not settle very quickly at all. So if you have a very thick layer of very find sediment you can guess that it took quite a while for all those tini grains to settle out but you can't be totally sure. It may also just be that there was a whole lot of them. Overall settling of sediments just isn't a good lead when talking about identifying the age of rocks.
learn something new everyday--for whatever reason, I had thought
granite was sedimentary. makes much mor sense for it to be igneous.
considering how durable it is.
Not all igneous rocks are tougher than sedimentary rocks though. The previously mentioned pumice and obsidian are pretty fragile. This is an aside though.
Now to the questions.
1) Is a single layer uniform (composed of the same material)?
When you get down into the really fine details of a sedimentary rock then answer is no. The Grand Canyon is a good example where some layers are described as a "Shaley Limestone" or "Sandy Limestone". Within each layer there may be finer gradients of differing materials indicating a slight change in how things "settled" although overall it is still one layer.
As for "extrusive rocks" (I assume you mean extrusive igneous rocks) being mixed into a layer; if you all of a sudden see igneous rock showing up then you know a volcanoe has erupted somewhere nearby. It should interrupt the layer rather than be mixed into it. If the circumstances of "settling" don't change much due to the eruption then you may find that things pick up with a new layer of the same material that was deposted before the volcanic material was laid down.
2)I think I get what you mean about it being difficult to have intrusive igeous being a part of a layer. Then, can the batholiths and plutons (I think I know what they look like--quick check though--sort of like the magma chamber in a volcano?) be used to help dating.
A magma chamber is an intrusive igneous rock but plutons and batholiths are WAAAY bigger than that. Were are talking whole mountains and mountain RANGES.
Intrusive rock can help with dating because of the principle of cross cutting relationships. We know that the intrusion is younger than the "stuff" it has intruded into. If the surrounding rock wasn't there, it would not be an intrusive rock. So since we can date the intrusion absolutly, we know that the rock it intruded into is older than the date given by the intrusion.
So lets say a magma body intrudes into some sandstone. The magma body cools into granite and we come in later and absolute date it to 300 million years old. We don't know exactly how old the sandstone layer is, but we know it is older than 300 million years. The intrusion gives us an upper bound to the age of the sandstone.
3) How are extrusive (igneous) rocks used to help date? Is it just by being used as a reference point, like, you know A is before J, but not how long before? Or, is it possible to also use it for absolute dating--where you know exactly how long A is before J?
It is more than just the relative relationship. Obviously if the igneous rock is layed on top of another rock it is older. The big main point to take hope is that we have a method of assigning an absolute date to the formation of igneous rocks. We can give an igneous rock a birthday.
From there we can use that date to say the rocks above it are younger than THAT PARTICULAR AGE and the rocks below it are older than THAT PARTICULAR AGE.
So in a simplistic example:
----> Igneous Rock absolute dated at 10 MA
====> Sedimentary rock
~~~~> Igneous Rock absolute dated at 20 MA
Even though we can't date the sedimentary rock directly, we know it is between 10 and 20 MA.
The reality is of course that there are few circumstances on earth that are that easy to sandwhich between two things that we can date absolutly. Even if we just make it 1 order more difficult.
----> Igneous at 10MA
====> Sedimentary #1
~~~~> Sedimentary #2
++++> Igneous at 20MA
We can say that both Sedimentary #1 and #2 are between 10 and 20 MA but just knowing the ages of the igneous rocks does not tell us what time sedimentary #1 represents compared to sedimentary #2. That is when we have to start looking at other factors that may give us clues as to what span of time those layers represent in between the dates given by the igneous layers.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by kuresu, posted 08-29-2006 4:38 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by kuresu, posted 08-30-2006 1:41 AM Jazzns has replied
 Message 60 by Percy, posted 08-30-2006 6:33 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 55 of 101 (344830)
08-29-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
08-29-2006 5:29 PM


Re: Principles of identifying a layer and time
I want to be able to visualize this process for all locations on earth
I am curious about this. I feel like I may not be understanding what you are looking for.
There are very few things in the column that are global and even when things in the column do relate they only do so locally. A particular relationship or set of relationships might help me pin down very narrowly the age of a rock in a particular area. This may not be true for a rock layer a few above or below or a short distance away.
Absolute dating give us some big lines that we can draw across a particular column where we have distinct and actual ages. But that may not work for another column where that layer which could be dated does not exist and there is no way to correlate layers in that other column to the first.
In reality, when you see an age given to a non-igneous layer you are getting an evidence based estimate of the age that takes into account the sometimes quite complex geological relationships of the locality of the layer.
Again the key point to take home is that the primary demarcation of the ages is based on absolute dating. There are plenty of other reason just examining relative dating situations and the content of the rocks to show that the earth is ancient, but in terms of giving a rock a birthdate there is only absolute dating.
and I need to be able to get a sense of the actual process in some specific locations to get an idea of it, but really, I think I was asking too much, and maybe it's a good thing this thread has become a basic geology course instead.
I don't have a good vocabulary of specific ACTUAL examples to deconstruct. Maybe someone can entice rox, IRH, or the likes out of hiding to point us at some good examples and let us baby geologists work them out.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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 Message 53 by Faith, posted 08-29-2006 5:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13046
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 56 of 101 (344885)
08-29-2006 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Faith
08-29-2006 5:08 PM


Re: accusations
Hi Faith,
And I requested that you take complaints to the appropriate thread and allow this thread to focus on the topic. See you in 24 hours.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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 Message 52 by Faith, posted 08-29-2006 5:08 PM Faith has not replied

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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 57 of 101 (344894)
08-29-2006 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Admin
08-29-2006 8:34 PM


Re: accusations
Er Admin... you 'caught' Faith in some 'letter of the law transgression' whilst in your role as Debater. According to the spirit of the law you yourself are acting in inappropriate manner.
Physician, heal thyself...
Or perhaps...suspend thyself
Or perhaps...unsuspend herself.
As a boss of mine used to say "he who never made a mistake never made anything"
Whaddya say boss...?
And no matter what you say, your still the boss...
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 58 of 101 (344898)
08-29-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by iano
08-29-2006 9:06 PM


Re: accusations
Night sis.

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2543 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 59 of 101 (344948)
08-30-2006 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Jazzns
08-29-2006 5:52 PM


Re: Igneous Rocks
sorry for taking a while on this--was interrupted by a birthday party--good one too.
anywho . . .
Okay, I've got relative dating, it seems. It's all logical. now on to the absolutes.
1)what is it about igneous rocks over sedimenatary (can metamorphic rocks be part of a layer?) that allows us to absolutely date them?
2)what methods allow for absolute dating? Is there more than one, in other words?
3) for relative dating, besides what you showed, are there methods for finding out about how old those inbetween layers are? if there are, what are they?

All a man's knowledge comes from his experiences

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Jazzns, posted 08-29-2006 5:52 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Jazzns, posted 08-30-2006 4:00 PM kuresu has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 60 of 101 (344981)
08-30-2006 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Jazzns
08-29-2006 5:52 PM


Re: Igneous Rocks
Sorry to butt in again, just a quick question.
Jazzns writes:
A magma chamber is an intrusive igneous rock but plutons and batholiths are WAAAY bigger than that. Were are talking whole mountains and mountain RANGES.
Hoover dam was built with cooling water pipes embedded in the concrete. Without them the concrete would have taken around 400 years to cool. Large masses of hot rock take long time periods to cool. The larger the mass, the longer it takes.
How long does it take plutons and batholiths the size of mountain ranges to cool to the same temperature as the surrounding rock? Seems like it might be yet another method placing a minimum age on the earth. This isn't directly relevant to this thread, but knowing the approximate time scales they take to cool within the earth would be very useful in dating discussions.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Jazzns, posted 08-29-2006 5:52 PM Jazzns has replied

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