Bible: Word of God or Not

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In fact, I have yet to see anyone question the validity of Plato’s works, for instance, with the same contempt shown for the Bible.

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Validity as in accuracy of what was said or validity as in, did Plato really write the words?I think the difference is that we readily admit that God did not physically write the books in the Bible. I've never heard the possibility that God could have physically written any of the books. Plato on the other hand is a man, who could have physically written down ideas. It is accepted that he wrote down what he remembered of discussions by Socrates. We could question how accurate his recollection is, but we at least acknowledge that he was writing from memory.Iceage isn't really looking at whether the information in the Bible is true or reliable. IMO, he's asking members to share evidence that leads them to believe that the words came from God, as opposed to the words coming from mankind and his perception of God or what God expects.Now Prophets supposedly had visions directly from God which they interpreted and wrote down. Their writings are the closest to actually being from God, but all the writings in the Bible do not have that authority behind them.So I feel that those writings have the potential of being God's words through man, but the rest I don't.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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But i can't find a single message, timeless, relevant or otherwise that runs thru the bible.

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If you don't want it done to you, don't do it to others; orDo unto others as you would have them do unto you.It was in the OT and in the NT.It is still relevant today.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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But that message does not run through the entire Bible. The children of Israel certainly believed in "Do unto others before they do unto you".... or perhaps you believe that the Israelites wanted to be slaughtered by the Canaanites.

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Hillel summarized the Torah before the birth of Christ. The New Testament You're confusing the idealic message with how the people actually behaved. Even today, Christians have trouble actually carrying out this command.In Message 157 Anastasia spoke of "the timeless relevancy of the message in general."What Hillel and Jesus summarized is a relevant and timeless message.A message isn't necessarily a running theme. What makes you think it has to "run" through the whole Bible to be considered an overall message?That doesn't mean that the timelessness of the message is proof that the Bible is the word of God, but it may be compelling enough for some.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Am I? This was the message from the Great Message Giver. How much more "Idealic" can you get. The people were actually following His command.

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I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

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Obviously Hillel never read the Torah. Conversely, Jesus message was not only different from that of the Old Testament, it was revolutionary. A 180 degree turn ....eh love thy enemies.

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My guess is that Hillel read and studied it in more depth than anyone on this Board.Don't confuse the corporate actions with the individual. Do unto others deals with the individual not the nation.How do you figure Jesus did a 180? It's the same message, Jesus just extended it to include enemies.It is still a timeless message to the individual.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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What "idealic" message?

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The Israelites received a command from God and they carried it out.

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The Hebrews received many commands from God. Some dealt with individuals and some dealt with the nation. 613 MitzvotThere are rules for individuals within the Hebrew community to live by: Rules for Businesses Judicial Rules Rules of War Not to mention rules concerning God and Torah, Love and Brotherhood, The Poor, Treatment of Gentiles, Marriage and Divorce, Agriculture, Health Issues, Property Rights, Criminal Laws and Punishment, Taxes, Rulers, and Religion.All of these are for the Hebrew Nation and its people. Just like all the copious laws and guidelines we, as individuals, deal with today. Some pertain to the individual and some pertain to the government.The general idealic message to the individual is to treat others the way you want to be treated, which is what we strive for in our laws and behavior today in the United States. We don't always succeed, but it is the goal.

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Do you think before you write? Does that statement make any sense to you? Nations are made up of individuals... sheesh! Do you think it makes a difference to me whether you or the United States slaughter my entire family?

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The Bible isn't written from the viewpoint of other nations. Just like our laws for citizens of the United States aren't written to accomodate the needs of citizens of another country.

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Simple.. The Torah says hate your enemies and Jesus says love them. The last time I checked hate and love were antonyms.

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Actually the author of Matthew didn't say that it was written in the Torah and I doubt if you'll find it written in the first five books of the Bible. Odds are Jesus was correcting a teaching. Please share the verses if you have found it written. Jesus was teaching individuals, not a nation's government. As I said in Message 182, Jesus extended it to include enemies. The Jews at the time of Jesus did not have their own "nation". They were under Roman rule, which meant the Jews were living amongst their enemies.As I said in Message 178: That doesn't mean that the timelessness of the message is proof that the Bible is the word of God, but it may be compelling enough for some.This thread is about what single most evidence or reason compells an individual to conclude that the Bible is or is not the word of God.If you don't feel that "Love your neighbor as yourself" is the overall message the Bible brings to the individual, then present what you feel the general message is or what compells you to conclude that the Bible is or is not the word of God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The timeless relevant GENERAL message I brought up, was salvation. The simple fact that we need to DO something to redeem our fallen nature.

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That I disagree with. While that type of salvation may be construed from the NT, I don't see that message in the OT. The salvation spoken of in the OT dealt with physically saving the Hebrews from their enemies.The doctrine of atonement seems to be a later teaching that arose out of Paul's teachings or interpretation of them, but I don't feel it was part of Jesus' ministry.

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The 'nation' we are speaking of is not one of race, national origin, or physical boundaries. It is the City of God, the chosen people, the Jews, and any person thereafter who believed, unto time eternal.

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You might be, but the OT isn't. Please show where the Bible authors (especially the OT) use the word nation in the manner you describe.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Sure, you can infer until your little heart's content, but that doesn't present a message that all can clearly see.That's part of the point of the debate/discussion. Show the evidence or reasons that support your conclusions and not get touchy because someone disagrees with you. You seem to be pulling your inferences from dogma and tradition, as opposed to, the Bible.Yes, according to the Hebrews, they are God's chosen people (ethnic group). They were the descendents of Abraham. They then became a nation (civilization). But when did the authors use "nation" to refer to an ethereal kingdom and/or future believers? When did Jesus?When did Jesus include everyone? He came for the lost sheep of Israel, which could either mean the lost tribes or those who had lost their way. My vote is for those who had lost their way. I don't believe Jesus talked with Gentiles or recruited Gentiles.Do you base your conclusion that the Bible is the word of God on the Bible itself or dogma and tradition? If it is on the Bible itself, show me where the message of salvation is clear through the ages.Treat others the way you want to be treated is evident in the OT, early Jewish teachings, the NT, and the teachings of Jesus. It is also evident in Native American teachings and secular teachings.I don't feel that the doctrine of atonement or salvation is universal or timeless.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The problem you are having is in seperating the old and the new. Just picture any novel; you will find some interesting points in each chapter, but you can not get the author's total plot until the end, and that is assuming a person can follow the plot, without getting caught up in the events which lead to it, or the personal opinions, local color, etc. which may be thrown in. I think the bible has a plot. I infer it somewhat, the same way I infer the plot in "A Tlae of two Cities". I mean, Dickens does not just sit there and repeat the ideal of loyalty on every page. He just tells a story, and appeals to the reader to find meaning.

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I'm quite aware of how to read a book by one author. Unfortunately the Bible isn't a novel by one author. It isn't even the collected works of one author.The Tanakh or OT for Christians contains the following:1. Torah - the first five books by at least four different authors (Documentary Hypothesis)
2. Nevi'im -Prophets - Over twelve different authors
3. Ketuvim - Writings - Over ten different authorsIn the New Testament we have one known author and over five unknown authors.Many of these were written centuries apart.So each book within the Bible may follow your analogy, but the Bible as a whole does not. Bible CanonEach author has their purpose for writing their manuscript. The Psalms are a collection of songs, the Proverbs are a collection of wise sayings.While you feel that the Bible has one plot, you have yet to share how that "plot" falls together reasonably so I can see your train of thought. To see the overall message of salvation you feel it contains.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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But why do I need to look in the bible for proof, when the topic is asking how we can prove the bible? If the bible contains proof that it is true, apparently it does not work for everyone, so we are still stuck with belief.

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The topic isn't looking for anyone to prove that the Bible is true.The topic is asking what singular piece of evidence or reason leads you to conclude that the Bible is or is not the word of God.You said over all general timeless message, but didn't say what the message was. Inquiring minds want to know.You disagreed with what I felt was the timeless message, but didn't show how you came to that conclusion. Inquiring minds want to know.If you don't want to share how you came to your conclusions, then just say so and I'll stop trying to see your point and our discussion is done.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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don't think that "Love your neighbor as yourself" is the overall message the Bible brings to the individual. The one message that is consistent and unambiguous throughout the Bible is that you obey God or suffer the consequences.

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And yet that is what the religious teachers taught as I showed you with Hillel in Message 178 and Ringo mentioned Jesus. Even if the bios of Jesus are total fiction, that is still the message the authors brought forth for his teachings.Yes the message to obey God or suffer the consequences is there, but have you noticed what God is upset about? He got upset when the Hebrews followed the ideals of other "gods" or nations and didn't behave as they should towards each other.That's why I feel that because that message is still valid today and other religions and peoples also have that message. I believe iceage pointed out in Message 197 that: So for someone who believes there is one supernatural God that reaches out to all people, this would be a compelling reason/evidence to accept the Bible as the word of God.Now for someone without a belief that a supernatural god exists, the view would obviously be different.The inconsistencies and exaggerations would be compelling reasons or evidence to not accept the Bible as the word of God.It's all in what you see or what you've been taught to believe.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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You are clearly missing the point. Of course the OT mentioned the golden rule, but then God's commands consistently contravened it.

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Again you are confusing what God has the "government" do and what God expects from individuals. If you provide verses I can understand which ones concern you. Jesus wasn't dealing with ruling the people, he was dealing with individual behavior.

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It always amazes me how we cannot see that obedience to God is only consistent message in the Bible.

And yet that is what the religious teachers taught as I showed you with Hillel in Message 178 and Ringo mentioned Jesus. Even if the bios of Jesus are total fiction, that is still the message the authors brought forth for his teachings

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You are clearly missing the point. Of course the OT mentioned the golden rule, but then God's commands consistently contravened it. Jesus' actions were more consistent with what He preached. Do you think that the Israelites had a choice in how their women were treated , or their neighbors(the Canaanites), or their slaves? They were just acceding to God's capricious desires.

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He got upset when the Hebrews followed the ideals of other "gods" or nations and didn't behave as they should towards each other

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Hmm, and I thought it was out of jealousy.
It always amazes me how we cannot see that obedience to God is only consistent message in the Bible.

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But it isn't timeless.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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yes but the OT testament is filled with story after story, command after command that contravenes "the message" just as Honda says.

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You are also confusing what God supposedly has the "government" or "army" do and what God expects from individuals on a day to day basis.Just as the United States Army cannot decide to attack another country on it's own, the Hebrews didn't attack other nations on their own. Our government decides if and when the army attacks. According to the Bible stories, God decides if and when to attack.Do you feel that the verses you provided are the point of the chapters or stories that they came from?This verse from Deuteronomy 22 is geared towards punishment of an individual and restitution, which happens after someone behaves improperly. It is not a verse on how to behave. This is what happens when someone doesn't behave correctly.That's why after you pointed out in Message 197: I stated in Message 204You are obviously unable to see the message that I see, but it doesn't negate the possibility that others can also see that message and that it can be a compelling reason for accepting the Bible as the word of God.You see the negative and therefore are not compelled to take the Bible as the word of God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The fact is that these are individuals putting a women with child to the sword and reaping the young virgins not the "government".

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An army is full of individuals, but they are ordered by the commander to kill the enemy. That's what these chapters are recording.That is not the message given to the individual in day to day living within the community.

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You missed the point entirely. This is not an application of the golden rule from the women's perspective.

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Notice the complete lack of concern for the woman in this passage. This is not a real punishment but just a business transaction. Ask any women you know if they would want to be forced to marry their rapists!

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I understand your point, but I disagree with it. The verse deals with punishment and restitution. Different culture. If my husband dies, I don't want to marry my father in law either. Different culture. Today, no, it is a rotten solution, but in it's day, it may have been the best solution for the woman. I don't know. But that punishment is obviously not timeless as you have shown. But by continuing to think how we would want to be treated in that situation, the punishment and restitution for such an act has changed.So while the punishment has changed with our culture the idealic message is still around and helped to bring about that change.

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For example, how many stories from the OT can you find demonstrating the application of the ethic of reciprocity where the "neighbor" is someone other than a male Hebrew? This is called in-group reciprocity and most primate groups exhibit similar behavior. I have shown several where it is not and there are many many more.

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Apparently you've missed the fact that I'm agreeing with you on that point. It is in-group reciprocity and yes it shows up in other cultures. I agree that the Bible is not unique in identifying this principle.I'm trying to explain to you that when someone who believes there is one supernatural God that reaches out to all people and understands the ethic of reciprocity as the overall message of the Bible; then seeing it in other cultures today and throughout time can be a compelling reason for them to conclude that the Bible is the word of God.

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To paraphrase first you have to have faith that the bible describes the supernatural God of the universe and then the bible is compelling.

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No you don't. One can learn from the Bible wether or not they believe God is supernatural. This isn't about whether the Bible is compelling. It is about what reasons or evidence compel people to conclude that the Bible is or is not the word of God.The ethic of reciprocity is one reason for those people who believe there is one supernatural God that reaches out to all people and understands the ethic of reciprocity as the overall message of the Bible.You do not find ethic of reciprocity a compelling reason to accept the Bible as the word of God, which is fine.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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No the point I don't see any examples of ethic of reciprocity (out-group) demonstrated in the entire OT. So I don't understand how it can be a compelling reason.

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And you won't. That's not what the Bible is. The OT deals with the events and people who shaped the nation of Israel.In our (U.S.) school history books, they don't speak of how well individuals followed the laws of the land. We learn about the landmark events or people that shaped our country. (Wars, riots, inventions, government, etc.)Do our history books show how the average individual treated others? NoYou can read one of our (U.S.) law books and see what is allowed and what isn't, you may be able to see what the punishment is for breaking those laws; but will you find out how well the average individual is carrying out those laws. No.You would need to study the culture of the Jews and their stories besides the Bible to see what was taught. The fact that Hillel, a great Jewish teacher, summed up the first five books as "if you don't want it done to you, don't do it to others." to a Gentile shows what was gleaned from those books for the individual. The laws were geared to help a large group of people live together as peacefully as possible.You talk as if you understand the reality of the Bible, but you don't seem to understand the difference between national and individual behavior. You say the Bible is myth and fable, but don't seem to understand how people learn from those types of writings. You're using a different measuring stick.

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The ethic of reciprocity in-group can actually be explained and modeled from a natural selection perspective. It it found throughout the natural world. Nothing compelling here.

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Right, so? I've already agreed with that. But that doesn't negate the idea that someone who feels that there is a supernatural God who created all of the natural world and sees this message throughout the natural world; would see the message as evidence that the Bible is the word of God because it carries that message. That fact actually strengthens the idea.This thread isn't about proving whether the Bible is the word of God or not. It is about sharing what motivates an individual to believe that the Bible is or is not the word of God. I'm trying to get you to see why someone who does glean that message from the Bible or the Bible teachings would consider the Bible to be the word of God. I'm not trying to get you to believe it. I am trying to get you to look at the Bible a little more realisticly though.

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However, i will admit "Love your Enemies" takes it to a different level and is more interesting. Suddenly you may have a principle that maybe universal, not cultural relative and not necessarily explainable by evolutionary psychology. Something to ponder.

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Exactly. Look at what was going on in the first century. The area wasn't so tribal. It was a big mixture of cultures and languages. Like early America. Now the people had to learn how to live peacefully with people of a different ethnic group. So the message expanded.There is a small book you might find interesting. "Who Wrote the Bible?" by Richard Elliott Friedman. It deals with the Documentary Hypothesis and gives you a good idea of the world that produced the Bible.The first five books (Torah) were probably written about 587-400bce. Torah means teaching, instruction or law. Once these instructions are put on paper they becomes stagnant never to change. The Jews understood this and that is why they have the oral law (Talmud). It constantly changes with the culture and the world to instruct Jews how to apply the laws or instructions of the OT (Tanakh).Myths and fables are teaching tools, that's why we have to understand the teaching and not get bogged down in the details. We also have to remember they were written for a specific culture, not us.Storytellers upgraded the tales to fit the current culture. To do that they needed to understand the "moral" of the story and then change the details so the current culture can understand. I feel that many of the parables that Jesus told are misunderstood because we aren't the culture they were intended for so we view it from our cultural standpoint and miss the original teachings within the parables.So can you understand why someone who believes in a supernatural God would find the "Do unto others..." message a good reason to accept the Bible as the word of God? I can understand why you don't feel it is a good reason to accept the Bible as the word of God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Bit rich, PD, to put the Bible and reality in the same sentence. ...Believe in any variety of nonsense you choose, but please don`t include reality.

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I really don't understand your point or what it has to do with the topic. Your last sentence doesn't even make sense.There is a reality behind the Bible, just as there is a reality behind nursery rhymes and fables. There are lessons to be learned. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with belief. It's looking at the real world that produced the Bible.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz