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Author
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Topic: Bible: Word of God or Not
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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anastasia writes: If someone tells me what could have happened in the Bible, but the Bible says otherwise, it is the same as my telling you that Snow White had 16 dwarves. If Snow White were real, it is possible that she did have 16 dwarves, but why bother? I was going to use the Three Pigs as an example.  Does it really matter whether there were three pigs or four or five? It's the talking pigs that make the story historically unlikely. Similarly, when somebody tells you what "could have happened" in the Bible, the implication is that what the Bible says probably couldn't have happened. Historically, scientifically, etc., the Bible doesn't add up to an accurate document. That doesn't mean we can't study it to figure out what parts of it are correct. Nor does it mean that it doesn't contain "messages from God". But we have to be aware that those messages have passed through many human filters.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 150 by anastasia, posted 11-08-2006 5:15 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 184 of 301 (363677)
11-13-2006 10:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 183 by honda33
11-13-2006 10:02 PM
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Re: Timeless Relevant General Message
honda33 writes: The Torah says hate your enemies.... Book, chapter and verse please?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 183 by honda33, posted 11-13-2006 10:02 PM | | honda33 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 186 by honda33, posted 11-14-2006 10:12 AM | | ringo has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 203 of 301 (363844)
11-14-2006 11:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 202 by honda33
11-14-2006 11:15 PM
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Re: Timeless Relevant General Message
honda33 writes: I don't think that "Love your neighbor as yourself" is the overall message the Bible brings to the individual. Jesus would disagree with you:
quote:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 202 by honda33, posted 11-14-2006 11:15 PM | | honda33 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 205 by honda33, posted 11-15-2006 7:13 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 209 of 301 (363916)
11-15-2006 11:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 205 by honda33
11-15-2006 7:13 AM
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honda33 writes: The overall message in the Bible is to "treat others as God commands you to treat them". That's like saying the overall message in The Lord of the Rings is that the Ring of Power will solve all our problems. It's like saying the overall message in Treasure Island is: When you're looking for treasure, hire a pirate. You claim to know more than Hillel and Jesus, but you can't even tell the difference between the problem and the solution. 
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 205 by honda33, posted 11-15-2006 7:13 AM | | honda33 has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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anastasia writes: It (the moral) is never spelled out for us, consistantly or otherwise, by Dickens; it is illustrated within the context of the story, and is the sum total of all its parts. And Hebrew scholars - e.g. Jesus and Hillel - seem to agree on the moral within the context of the Tanakh, the sum total of its parts - in spite of honda33's dissenting opinion. The exceptions - e.g. genocide - are not the rule. The exceptions attributed to God are the best evidence (in my opinion) that the Bible is not the (dictated) word of God. Some of it is man's attempt to justify his own actions by blaming them on God.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 210 by anastasia, posted 11-15-2006 1:45 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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anastasia writes: But if we look at the sum total of the bible as being about redemption, even the exceptions to the law of love can be said to fall into the story as illustrations of the righteous wrath and punishment of God, or even of self-inflicted punishment due to disobedience. I think that's looking at it backwards. The ongoing theme would be: Do what God wants you to do - i.e. love thy neighbour - and you'll be okay. If you take redemption as the theme, you're looking at the negative instead of the positive, the bad news instead of the Good News. The gospel is a carrot, redemption is a stick.
God will often let the world wreck its own havoc in the form of wars etc. which can be said to be an inflicted punishment for accumulated sins. I think wars are their own punishment. Punishment for other sins isn't distributed in the form of wars.
Is it more important to say the writers of the bible were inspired, or the compilers? Perhaps God only wanted to inspire the compilation of the bios, histories, and myths, that would best illustrate His divine plan. That's a very good point. Writers are inspired to write (and I include e.g. Shakespeare, Hemingway, etc. among the inspired), compilers are inspired to compile, translators are inspired to translate, commentators are inspired to comment... "Word of God" is really a misnomer. I'd call it the "message of God" in the words of man.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 212 by anastasia, posted 11-15-2006 2:37 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 220 of 301 (363940)
11-15-2006 4:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 213 by honda33
11-15-2006 2:41 PM
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honda33 writes: You analogy is like asking some one what is overall message of all the books in a library. Not at all - the Bible is a very small library. Nobody is suggesting that all of its books have exactly the same theme - but they were all written by and for the same culture (essentially) by people with a similar viewpoint. What's really silly is comparing the Bible to a modern library that's thousands of times bigger. It would be more appropriate to compare it to a modern library's collection of books on outsider art. Do you think you could detect a central them in most of the books about outsider art? Your own quote underlines the central theme of the Bible:
quote:
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
The emphasis is on keeping the commandments - i.e. loving thy neighbour - not on "enforcement". So, what are you saying is the best evidence that the Bible is/isn't the word of God?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 213 by honda33, posted 11-15-2006 2:41 PM | | honda33 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 223 by honda33, posted 11-15-2006 6:23 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: two questions
anastasia writes: How is redemption negative? ... the harsh reality of death. This harsh reality, and the possibilty of eternal damnation.... For a start, focusing on "eternal damnation" is pretty negative. Why would God condemn us to eternal damnation and then "redeem" us? Sounds like some celestial pawn shop.
... is what exactly is compelling about the BIble. I'd say more like repelling. The redemption idea is another good evidence that the Bible is the word of men - men who want to be the pawnbroker, taking their cut of the redemption transaction.
war is a scourge upon man, the same as famine, disease, etc. War and famine are things that we inflict on ourselves and on our fellow man. Disease is a consequence of biology. The idea that God would actively promote those horrors is particularly repulsive.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 222 by anastasia, posted 11-15-2006 6:16 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 225 of 301 (363969)
11-15-2006 6:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 223 by honda33
11-15-2006 6:23 PM
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Do you really believe that there was no emphasis on enforcement? The enforcement angle always came from the priesthood: Commit a sin, barbecue an ox. Now, what are we going to do with all that meat? Hmm....
The central theme of the Bible is not unique. I didn't say it was unique. I said it was there. The reason it is a central theme is because it resonates with us - it makes sense. Loving thy neighbour doesn't just make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. It works. You really do get along better with your neighbour if you're not constantly trying to steal his wife or his ox. That's one indication that the theme - the "message" - might have a higher source than the men who wrote the stories. The grimier details are an indication that the stories themselves are just stories.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 223 by honda33, posted 11-15-2006 6:23 PM | | honda33 has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: two questions
anastasia writes: if you are a follower of the Bible, even as a product of man, do you interpret it in your own way and attempt to portray that here, or do you honestly think every christian should disregard all unpleasant references to damnation? Given those two choices, I guess I "interpret it in my own way". With reference to the topic, I think the idea of eternal damnation is a wholly human invention. As "the word of God", it makes no sense.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 226 by anastasia, posted 11-15-2006 7:44 PM | | anastasia has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 242 of 301 (364024)
11-16-2006 12:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 241 by anastasia
11-15-2006 11:43 PM
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Re: putting the cart before the horse
anastasia writes: if we were perfect, we would have no need for commandments or clues about the path to take. Imperfection doesn't presuppose or even imply a "fallen nature".
The moment the Bible is proven to be truly the word of God, it would effectively discontinue all need for faith. Why must there be a "need" for faith? Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It's a fall-back position for what we don't see, not an ideal. Another reason to believe the Bible is not the word of God is that God has never taken public credit for it.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 241 by anastasia, posted 11-15-2006 11:43 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 246 of 301 (364089)
11-16-2006 12:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 245 by anastasia
11-16-2006 11:53 AM
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Re: putting the cart before the horse
anastasia writes: Following a commandment presupposes a perceived imperfection on the part of the believer. There could also be a perception or belief that to desist from the regime would lead to a disintigration of the status quo. a person could also follow a command without the perception or realization of flaw or impending flaw in themselves. as in a person with a difficult boss. This person could obey for fear of consequences, or punishment. (Your own) three different reasons for following commandments: - Self-improvement.
- Keeping things running smoothly.
- Fear of consequences.
Only the third one requires the "commandments" to be the word of God.
This still demonstrates a willing subordination to a greater goal, and the belief that one exists. The "greater goal" could be a functioning society or just being "all that I can be" - i.e. it can be our goal, not the word of God. ------------- By the way, you can do quotes like this: [qs=Ringo]Something Ringo said.[/qs] which will produce this:
Ringo writes: Something Ringo said. or like this: [quote]Some wise saying.[/quote] which will produce this:
quote:
Some wise saying.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 245 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 11:53 AM | | anastasia has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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anastasia writes: If you want to prove whether the Bible is the word of God, which I think is unprovable, it is best to start with what it actually says, than to concoct your own version. I'm not "concocting my own version". I'm just quoting different parts than you are. You say, "The wages of sin is death," and I say, "But the gift of God is eternal life," and I say that we receive that gift as a "reward" for feeding the hungry, etc. - not for belief in a higher power, if any. The fact that there are differing viewpoints on what the bible "means", on what its "theme" is, suggests that it is not the word of God per se. Rather, it seems to be an attempt by men to rationalize their own thoughts by attributing them to a higher power. Different men, different thoughts, different viewpoints expressed in the Bible. Different viewpoints expressed by people who read the Bible. It all seems more "poly" than "mono" to me.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 247 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 2:05 PM | | anastasia has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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anastasia writes: I think you believe that the commandments are of men, and that a rational being would WANT to follow them because they make sense and can bring functionability to individuals or nations. You see a timeless message in the Bible, but no need to attribute that to a higher power, as it is readily understandable and demonstratable by mortals. That's a pretty fair assessment.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 249 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 4:39 PM | | anastasia has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 264 of 301 (364326)
11-17-2006 10:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 262 by anastasia
11-17-2006 10:08 AM
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anastasia writes: ... would that be fair to those who had loyalty and trust without seeing Him? Is God under any compulsion to be "fair"? And why would He think more of those who blindly accept what their parents blindly accepted, than He thinks of those who question Him and still choose to follow His message? The sermon is more important than the preacher. The message is more important than the messenger. If there is a God, then maybe the Bible contains a message from Him, even if not in His exact words. If He went to the trouble to send us a message, don't you think He was putting more emphasis on the message than on Himself?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 262 by anastasia, posted 11-17-2006 10:08 AM | | anastasia has replied |
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