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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: A Liberal's Pledge to Disheartened Conservatives ...by Michael Moore | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Fantastic.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But they were puritanical war-profiteers. Their record and angenda speaks for itsself.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: If we have no federal taxes, how are we supposed to fund a military to take over the Middle East for the oil companies?
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
But they were puritanical war-profiteers. Their record and angenda speaks for itsself. quote: Yes, really. They have profited mightily from the war. The wish to enforce their puritanical morality upon the rest of the country, by law. It's very clear, really. ...although there is certainly a liberal dose of incompetence in there, particularly regarding Rumsfeld and Bush.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: She also has every right in the world to be, or not be, pregnant. Carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth involes many health risks, rat, as much as you would like to ignore that fact. It also involves expense. It's her body, and she is a living, breathing, viable person. The fetus is not.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: He wasn't the first, but he did squander the budget surplus that Clinton gave him in 2000, decieve us into an extremely expensive and unecessary war, and then continue to cut taxes at the same time we are at war. Fiscal irresponsibility, to put it politely.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You're forgetting the Soviet nuclear missiles that were nearly pointed at us from Cuba. ...and the ones that actually were pointed at us from the USSR, for that matter. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: And that's why anyone who voted for Bush in '04 was a fool.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Overall federal debt and budget surplus are not the same thing.
quote: Where do you get this, because according to my info, it's simply false. My info indicates that, as a percentage of the GDP, government spending declined by a "whopping" two percent. Oh, and my info is from The Economist. (methinks you should stop getting your information from right-wing Clinton-bashing websites) Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Why do you need to hit children?
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
No, although I was nanny to my 14 year old niece when she was a two year old.
My brother and one of my sisters have never hit any of their children, and they have very well-behaved, wonderful children, so I know it isn't neccessary. So, I ask again. Why do you have to hit children?
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, if you and I were sitting in a bar, and every time you didn't approve of something I said, you slapped me across the face, do you think the police officers and judge would accept your explanation that you were simply using a valid way to teach me dicipline? If it's not OK for you to do it to me, why is it OK for you to do it to a child? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Can you show where I claimed that, or are you simply going to do what you usually do an argue against what you wished I had claimed instead of what I actually said? At any rate, your claim has several holes. First of all, you don't know if the person might have been an even better adjusted, more remarkable person had they not been physically punished. Second, the person might have grown up to be "just fine" in spite of rather than because of the physical punishment they received at the hands of their parents.
quote: That's both true, and irrelevant to the subject of physical punishment. Just to reiterate, the question I asked truthlover was; Why do you need to hit children? So far, nobody has answered that question.
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Why do you need to hit children? So far, nobody has answered that question. quote: I never said that anyone needs to emotionally manipulate children.
quote: Oh yes, hitting children is eactly on the same level as sending them to school when they would rather not go. [/eyeroll] And parents don't actually HAVE to send them to school. They could homeschool them.
quote: No it isn't. I asked that question as an honest question. I have asked that question to many people who advocate using physical pain on children and I have yet to get an answer that doesn't boil down to, "It's easier".
quote: LOL I wasn't "dodging", it's just irrelevant, since horses are not humans, but if you insist...
quote: Many people do, but the trainers who know what they are doing do not.
quote: Yes.
quote: No, they are getting trained, just not trained very well. They won't be as willing to try hard for the trainer and will be less affectionate and far less trusting and happy about their job. You can use a stick, so to speak, but it will only get you so far with a 1,200 lb animal. It is usually the less experienced and less skilled, impatient macho-type trainers who have to resort to pain and fear of more pain to get obedience. But like I said, there is a price to pay for going down that road.
quote: It's interesting that you would bring this up. Do you know anything about wild equine herd/social interactions? Horses are very physically expressive with each other and there is a lot of touching and communication between them all the time. There are disagreements and power struggles but if they are given adequate range rarely do the conflicts actually result in any sort of serious physical altercation. The only time this really happens is when individuals are being challeneged by another for dominance, and that mostly happens with the stallions. The mares have a pecking order too, but again, most of this is maintained by (often subtle) threat and posturing rather than by actual physical pain. The best horse trainers learn to understand this language of horses and will use it (and have always used it) to calm and gain the trust of a horse and to become "alpha" so the use of physical punishment is not needed. All that "horse whisperer" hype from a few years ago seemed like magic to laypeople but was nothing new to me.
quote: But I'm not. If someone who advocates such a method can provide a reasonable explanation for why a parent who is larger and more powerful than a child, who has learned to regulate their emotions and impulses better than a child, and is more educated, experienced, resourceful, and wise than a child, needs to use physical pain (and the resulting fear and humiliation) to teach the child, I am willing to consider it. Edited by schrafinator, : fixed punctuation Edited by schrafinator, : spelling "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."- Richard Feynman "Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"- Ned Flanders
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: OK, now this is just getting silly. Are you seriously saying that a child is either "upset" or "not upset" in some sort of binary way and that there are no gradations at all?
quote: LOL! Yeah, coz horses and humans have really similar frontal lobes. Tell me, how much time have you spent interacting with horses?
quote: What, do you want me to provide quotes from expert horse trainers? Do you really think you could understand them. I hope that you realize that I have a BS in Equestrian Studies and have trained horses professionally in the past, including starting youngsters.
quote: Sure you can. But my definition of a "well-trained" horse doesn't include winning prizes.
quote: ...and wearing spurs. You missed those. I didn't use them at all during that particular event, but I wore them.
quote: ROTFLMAO! No, using the reins is not punishment. LOL!! I am sitting here laughing out loud, holmes, because what you don't know about riding and training horses is a lot. In my avatar picture, I was very close to being run off with. Crockett (that was the little Arabian's name) got incredibly strong and fast during stadium jumping courses, but only at competitions. He was much more mellow at home. I was half-halting nearly every stride on course (and my legs were exhausted by the end of it) just to keep from taking the jumps so flat and having a rail down because of too much speed and not rounding them properly. I was mostly using my legs and back to check him, not the reins, because if I had actually just leaned back and pulled on his face, he would have just stuck his head in the air and run into the next county. Now, tell me how much of what I just explained you really understood.
quote: That word "broken" is very misleading. People imagine all sorts of things out of the Wild West involving "bucking broncos" and the like. In these more enlightened, modern times, we like to use the phrase "started under saddle", or "backed". I cannot think of a worse thing to do to a young horse while starting them than to use pain to punish them. That is simply asking for a huge number of behavior problems that may never be able to be fixed. I know, since I used to have to try to fix them for people.
quote: No, actually by the time one gets on the back of a horse, it should pretty much be no big deal to him. More than anything with some horses it triggers an evolutionary response to run away if any sort of weight is on their back (like a mountain lion). But unless the trainer is a complete moron, he will not use pain as a punishment at any point along the way of bringing along a green horse. It could very easily ruin it as a saddle horse.
quote: I hate horse racing.
quote: No, not at all. Lots of people push horses to that level, and I do not agree with doing that. But that is not what I have been talking about, anyway. I have only ever been talking about why people who advocate hitting children to teach them feel that they need to do it.
quote: First evolution, then Mama.
quote: LOL!! "Mommy, mommy, why is Daddy hurting you under the covers??" While funny, this is even more irrelevant to human parent/child interactions. Remember the great big frontal lobes we have and the large amount of brain we devote to speech?
quote: quote: Children, unlike horses, are meant to understand that the person who hits them, loves them. Not only that, but how the parent treats the child is how the child learns to treat who he or she professes to love, and how he or she treats those weaker than them. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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