A Liberal's Pledge to Disheartened Conservatives ...by Michael Moore

I found it to be a rather condescending gloatfest. But the problem rests with me; I simply can't take Michael Moore seriously enough to take him at his word.He's in no position to make promises in the first place, but if he were he could have made them without implying that the previous government was run by puritanical, war-profiteers. MM can't lose or win gracefully it seems. There was a time when victory speeches were all about what a good race was run by your worthy adversary and the importance of rolling up our sleeves and getting to work. At some point the dems will realize that they will now be held responsible and get to catch all the blame for the next two years.Fine, the democrats are going to get their turn at bat...let's see 'em knock a few out of the park before we celebrate.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

I remember more of this type of behaviour coming from the 2004 campaign than I did this most recent one; with a few annoying exceptions. It was a reprehensible ploy and I'm making no excuses for it, but that's not the topic. I agree that he is free to say whatever he wants to say, but MM is one of the country's premier public flame-warriors and I see no cause to regard him as anything other than the kind of scum that scum wipes off the bottom of their shoes. The fact that gutter-flotsam exists on all sides of the political fence doesn't make me like the taste of his brand better than that of anyone else.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

Really?There isn't even a possibility that they could be incompetents guided by high ideals? Or perhaps good people who made bad decisions? Or even real statesmen who just happen to disagree with you?It's exactly this kind of automatic demonization of the opposition that has split our country to the point that we can't even agree that stoning little girls for being raped is wrong. If you don't show a little respect for the opinions of others then don't expect any for yours.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

I guess we must live in alternate universes. The results of the last election made it clear to me that the republicans have caught the lion's share of the blame. I'm sure they would have been happy to rub it off on the democrats if they could. Who cares what I acknowledge? The answer to these questions is delivered by the voting public. But it seems there's a large contingent of democrats who are more concerned with holding an inquisition and subsequent auto de fe than they are with actual fixing our broken government.Does the name calling actually fix anything? Come on RAZD. I have a high opinion of you as a person with better than average powers of reason. We're living in a country where we seem to be performing a perverse type of natural selection on politicians that will result in a new species of hyper-successful insult comic. Can't we do better than that?

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

What sort of responsibility falls on the republicans alone? We'll all be held responsible and we'll either face the fact that the well has a bottom or we'll suffer an economic collapse. At that point there won't be just one party to blame, there'll be two. Unless of course (as I said) the dems (or anyone else really) decide to step up and put us on a responsible path.The dems have their opportunity...like I said: let's see what they can make of it before we decide they're superior to dubya and his buddies. From where I sit I don't see much difference.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

Volume and vindictiveness go farther in a flame war than wit. Moore brings plenty of the former and none of the latter. I'll agree with you about Vidal and Chomsky, but it seems they don't have a lot of the popularity that the bomb-throwers like Moore and Coulter have. Nowadays it seems that polite discourse is a sign of weakness and listening is something the other side is supposed to do.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

There's an old saying: Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.I'm not gonna sit here and tell you dubya's a good president, but I don't think he's evil incarnate either. No...just a personal pet peeve. The Taliban and similar religious nutjobs need to be crushed. Respecting their diversity is the same thing as throwing the stones. I'm a tolerant person but I would rather see dead murderers than more victims. Iraq may be the wrong war, but we're there. The day they stone a rape victim or hang a 14 year old for being gay is the day I'll know we lost not only the war, but our very soul. You think Bush is evil...open your eyes. I didn't ask you to turn the other cheek...I asked you to stop slapping...there is a difference.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

The same lies and data that the democratic administration believed before Bush you mean? If it's that bad let's get the impeachment underway and let's see the evidence. Otherwise we might as well be a bunch of creationists believing what we're told.I don't think history will let the Bush administration off the hook for Iraq, but those books aren't written yet. We'll have to see. In the meantime we're all sitting around the table hoping someone else picks up the check. Congress has authorized the expenditures made. It is our debt and bitching about who ordered the lobster ain't gonna change it.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

Really? I'm unaware of the Karzai government dragging people into the Kabul Olympic Soccer Stadium for pre-game executions or the current Iraqi government ordering the gassing of Kurds. The folks in charge there now are not perfect by a long shot but they are a damn site better than the folks in there before. Granted there are still people who long for "that old-time religion", but there are also people risking their lives and the lives of their families trying to build a democracy. We should at least draw the distinction between those who are trying to make it better and those who are trying to make it worse. From where I sit it's not whispering, but an acknolwedged result of taking military action of any sort. At some point the fighting has to stop and peace has to be restored. Since it's unrealistic to adopt a policy of killing all of the Taliban, we must make peace with them eventually. The only question is if the peace will be on terms that increase the security of Afghanis and Americans alike or if they will only increase the security of the islamic elite. So you're saying we're better off not fighting back and letting the murderers do their thing unopposed? You first.Even if all that is being accomplished is that we are destroying ourselves by fighting those who would destroy us, I'd still opt to fight. The enemy chooses to fight among civilians and so places them in danger. Civilized armies do their best to avoid innocent casualties and punish those of their own who commit crimes. Can't you see the difference between the two? I'm not making myself understood very well I guess. War isn't going to prevent any of that...only worldwide social change can do so. Look, from the start I thought that they were going about it the wrong way too...historically foreign powers do not win insurrections...but pundits have construed every move of this administration as a criminal money grab. There's a difference between blaming a quarterback for losing a game and accusing him of throwing the game.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

With the approval of the House of Representatives and the Advice and Consent of the Senate and all that other blather. Our Government spending is out of control...dubya didn't do it all by his own self. Let's see now...they only became lies after Bush came to power and started repeating what the previous administration had said (not to mention no less than a dozen friendly countries)...is that what you're saying?I'm calling BS here Jar. Please tell us the things that the Bush administration told us that weren't based on the best information available as provided by earlier administrations, our intelligence community and our allies. I'm not saying any of it was right...I'm just saying it's what we believed at the time. Iraq had the obligation to prove they had completely dismantled their WMD program and the obligation to abide by all terms of the ceasefire. Hussein could have simply allowed free access to inspectors as required by his agreement and then nobody would have had to guess. (I'm not trying to start a WMD discussion).

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

I'm not sure what you're looking for here RAZD. Are you expecting the GOP to apologize to you or something? That ain't how the game's played and you know it. Where's the Democrat's apology for Vietnam or...hell they should apologize first for Iraq because we can trace this all back to things that began on their watch!Of course then the Pope's gotta apologize for the Crusades and the Egyptians for the battle of Kadesh and Moses for discriminating against lobsters.See RAZD, I expect to see dems standing around demanding apologies...I hope to see them taking this opportunity to fix everything they've been telling us is wrong. The implication being that only those on the right are supposed to be laughed at while a left-leaning comedian deserves more respect...is that what you mean?I actually agree with you...I'd trade all the named idiots in for Jon Stewart because he makes me laugh and think. The difference being that I can pretty much match every right-wing idiot with an equally idiotic person from the left. Neither party has cornered the stupidity market.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

Jar...deficit spending did not begin with dubya.To hell with it...it doesn't matter who you blame for it...we're all responsible because it's our government. If you can prove a crime then present it to your congressman to get the impeachment ball rolling. Prove it to me in front of congress and I'll help you collect tar and feathers as soon as we run him out of the White House. That is a case of selective memory talking. The Clinton administration took steps to prepare the country for war with Iraq in 1997 citing concerns about WMD to pressure Iraq into allowing inspectors to return. Either you believe Clinton was bluffing (for which I'd like to see some evidence) or you'll agree that your statement above is factually incorrect.Forbidden!The only difference between Bush and Clinton rhetoric is that Bush pulled the trigger. I'm not saying he was right.Edited by Wepwawet, : Fixing the linky thingummy

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

I agree with you here although I suspect the run of the mill conservative's draw might drop. The Russians were just doing what Russians do and our own provincial outlook almost took it to WWIII. That same attitude is still quite evident in our dealings with other countries. It doesn't help that heavy-handed rhetoric gets better ratings than reasoned diplomacy either.Damn...it feels good to agree with somebody about something in this thread.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

In my opinion this exact situation (Kabul itself being a little better) is a condition that may allow for peaceful recovery in time. If the government can maintain local security long enough to begin addressing the concerns of the people then peace might start spreading. In a post above I mentioned how insurrections are lost by foreign powers...insurrections are won by governments that can build appeal among the people. Karzai has a good start in Kabul...all he has to do is build faith with the people And push that out to new people at every opportunity.If people feel just a tiny bit safer in Kabul then they'll go to Kabul and eventually they'll have enough people there to spread out even farther. South Vietnam's incompetent leadership placed their faith in the army and in their foreign allies...not in the people. The people were alienated from the government and the VietCong and NVA did a superlative job of convincing South Vietnamese where their true interests lie. South Vietnam didn't fall so much as implode from it's own incompetence. Interesting to note though dubya's recent speech praising Vietnam. One of these days we'll start getting more books that tell the story of that war from their side...I can't wait. But that's not really so in the case of Islamic terrorism and middle eastern unrest is it? Anybody with a couple synapses to rub together should be able to figure out that something can and should be done...we should strive to improve economic and social conditions that result in terrorism. We should track down and destroy the terrorists where and how we can and we should carry on our own lives as if there were no threat at all to the best of our abilities. So you think UbL and his buddies are just joking when they plot to murder us by the thousands? How about Iran's sexy new president leading millions in chantin "Death to America"? Yes Chiroptera...there are people who would destroy us if they could. There are people who believe it is their sacred duty to kill Americans...not just American politician and soldiers, but civilians, non-combatants, children...everybody.I agree with you a lot more than I disagree. Dubya thought he could roll into another country and make them furriners do what he said. It was and is idiotic reasoning and shouldn't be glorified with the term plan. I saw Afghanistan and Iraq coming (I don't see Iran coming...if we wind up shooting first there I'll be highly surprised) and I encouraged my representatives to oppose them both. The plan of going into another country...destroying its government and setting up a new one favorable to yourself is just out and out doomed.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research

Clinton didn't have a budget surplus unless you use the kind of accounting that gets private citizens taxpayer-funded secure lodging. Clinton achieved his apparent surplus by increasing the the overall government drain on the economy by a whopping 2% of the GDP. The overall federal debt still grew during Clinton's watch.Now I'm not saying that dubya's policies are an improvement mind you, but Clinton's administration has no more claim to fiscal responsibility than the current crowd.

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When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data.
- Henry Morris, Head of Institute for Creation Research