|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,890 Year: 4,147/9,624 Month: 1,018/974 Week: 345/286 Day: 1/65 Hour: 0/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Determining a book's truth. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
the bible is completely true What do you mean by true? Is every word chosen by God?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
i believe Genesis was from God, because, duh no one was there. Sophisticated reasoning there. This means all creation stories must be from God (and true) since no one was there to record it. The bible stories are borrowed myths from Gilgamesh. Was Gilgamesh "from God".
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Psalm148 writes: A city with the same name doesn't mean it is the same city. A city of the same name rebuilt in the same location does mean the same city. Furether the prophecy claims Nebuchadnezzar specifically which did not happen.
Ezekiel 26:14 writes: "I will make you a bare rock; you shall be a place for the spreading of nets; you shall never be rebuilt; for I the Lord have spoken, says the Lord God." This refers to a physical geographic location not some essence of Tyre as no city maintains its essence thru the ages and inevitable conquest. Interesting even the NT refers to Tyre in several places.
psalm 148 writes: and just a city built near the ancient location would not mean it was the same. What do you mean by "near"? But moving right along there are other problems in Ezekiel such as...
Ezekiel 29:8-12 writes: ...thus says the Lord God. And the land of Egypt shall be desolation and a waste...no foot of man shall pass through it and no foot of beast shall past through it; it shall be uninhabited for forty years. And I will make the city of Egypt desolation in the midst of desolated countries; and her cities shall be desolated forty years... I will scatter Egyptian among the nations, and disperse them through the countries. Any thoughts on this prophecy?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Psalms writes: I've read that it was besieged and taken, and yet you(s) claim otherwise Agreed the city was besieged and taken numerous times thru history as most (all) ancient cities. However, there is a city today in the same place as the ancient city.
Psalm writes: AS in it was in a different location then. Please explain different location and I will stop. Here is a good aerial map of Tyre showing the mainland and island part of the city... Account Suspended I can understand why you want to move on from this but you are hanging on to this "different location" and some testimony of a friend of a cousin.
Psalm 129 writes: Neb started, Alexander completed, some other people rebuilt. The prophecy states Nebuchadnezzar was to destroy the City not someone else over 2 centuries later. This a failure of the prophecy. Concerning Egypt...
Psalm 148 writes: I assume its safe to say that this hasn't happened yet Not safe at all. The prophecy is specifically against the Pharaoh, king of Egypt. The Pharaoh's are long gone and people of Egypt have been mostly replaced with another people.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Psalm writes: One can pull anything off the internet, I have no idea who anyone here are, and I've seen photos and personal testimonies of people I trust and admire that claim contrary to what has been said. Look this is not some artist rendering or simulation but a aerial image of the city of Tyre. The causeway that Alexander built is now expanded so that the Island city of Tyre is a peninsula. http://www.earthspots.com/ExploreEarthSpot.php?NID=1211&MT=1
Psalm writes: I have seen a photo of the land and island of Tyre, and in it, there was no land connection. You most certainly have been deceived! There is no more island of Tyre! If you can find any information that it is not then please present it and overturn all that we have shown you. Please scan and post your photo. I will humbly capitulate if you can show this to be true.
Psalm writes: Iceage, I looked at the map image on the previous post, and the land connecting the two was huge. Was this something recent that was done? I had seen a picture previously, and what remained of the causeway was a thin strip that was underwater for all but the lowest of tides. Yet here it appears that there is land connecting the two by a thick strip. Psalm this point is not really debatable. Do your own research. You are really proving the point I often argue - personal testimony is not reliable.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Psalm148 writes: Please bring another contradiction, and though I did not do well on explaining the cock, perhaps I could shed some light on other areas. Psalms the whole philosophy of the Bible is contradiction with itself. Apologists have been working overtime for centuries to explain a way the numerous contradictions, typos, redacted and merged stories, obvious later additions, and opposing philosophies. You now have the internet to quickly look up and find these long and often unsatisfying "explanations" why, for example, Matthew clearly misquotes the OT scriptures in several places. In general and higher level terms, the Bible is contradictory in major themes of philosophy and clearly demonstrates an evolution of thought over its length of composition. As an example, consider the "evolution" of the major features of the Christianity such as salvation and its relationship with heaven and hell. In the OT these ideas are pretty murky and not well developed. In the OT, salvation was the saving from the troubles of this worldly life such as from mortal enemies, foreign domination or poverty and famine. In the NT, the concept changed to mean salvation from eternal condemnation and suffering. A very significant shift in philosophy on a fundamental issue. In the OT, paradise is a lush garden. In the NT heaven is remodeled, and is described as being paved in gold with walls of gemstones. This most likely reflects the transition of the prevailing culture from an agricultural to urban existence. In the OT, hell is not defined. There is mention of "the grave", "the realm of death", a dark gloomy place of the underworld; but pain and punishment is not associated with hell. In concept the OT view of hell of the afterlife is very similar to the Greek vision of Hades. Now in the NT we have a newly outfitted hell with lakes of fire and gnashing of teeth. Hell is now specifically a place of punishment, a staggering and monumental, if not inventive shift, in philosophy. These ideas evolved because extreme reward and punishment are very good recruiting tools and have durable value for specifically that reason. These philosophical transformations are so radical that I believe they are themselves contradictions. Consider also:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Psalms writes: Matthew misquotes, but I believe it also quotes things we don't have. Yup Matthew does misquote. So for those looking for a contradiction and maybe a clue that the Bible is not "God Breathed" or inerrant there it is.
Psalms writes: When Constantine merged with Christianity, he brought things with him, one of those is the modern concept of hell. The concept of hell as punishment, with all the accessories, and eternal suffering is very well supported by the NT alone (outside of Revelations). We also can't blame Constantine for this one. There are numerous and vivid descriptions of Hell in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The major point is this... The ideas of Salvation, Heaven and Hell morphed or evolved over the time period of the writings of the Bible. These are memes, if you will, that have durability because they are successful marketing tools and capture the imagination. Successful concepts for conversion of the unwitting maybe, but a very obvious clue that the Bible is not Godly inspired. To claim that the Bible is God thoughts is blasphemy.
Psalms writes: David was the man after God's own heart. And he didn't make it. I think I'm way below the mark. I dunno, I suspect that you are not an adulterer or a murderer? David was.
Psalms writes: The fact is, nobody except Christ ascended to heaven. Well this is hardly a fact. However this is yet another contradiction. The text of the OT clearly says Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into heaven"
Psalms writes: If Heaven were what the goal was, why have a Resurrection? A good point I suppose, but the Bible is not clear! We can argue all day long with scripture and counter-scripture. The fact that we can debate this or faith/works or others features of the religion is proof in itself that the Bible is inconsistent message! The Bible is exactly the result of what one would expect of various authors writing about "spiritual" things that you cannot measure - each has their own bent, bias and predilections . Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Psalm writes: By the by, could I get a couple of the misquotations in Matthew? There are several. But the clearest is where Matthew incorrectly attributes a prophecy by Zechariah to Jeremiah...
quote: While it sure looks like he was off a prophet or two and was referring to Zechariah....
quote: An easy mistake as Matthew did not have Google to help out
Psalm writes: So is it possible then that what he says is referencing something we don't have? That is a possibility. However this raises more problems than it solves. Christians often claim the sacredness of the OT because the Apostles and Jesus referred to it on many occasions. If the NT references other missing works then this implies that the Bible is incomplete.
Psalms writes: Descriptions of Hell. Give them to me Look'm up - lake of fire, hell fire and unquenchable fire, very graphic.
Psalms writes: However, Elijah didn't stay there, he is referenced again later in that he sent a message to a king. A contradiction that solves another contradiction. I like it
Psalms writes: Plus, heaven has three meanings:Sky, place of celestial (planets) dwelling, and the place God lives. Elijah went up into the sky. Sure let's examine that thought
quote: If it said "into the heavens" I may buy that explanation. Yes, maybe all the Bible interpreters got it wrong and confused. Unless someone can show otherwise, I will take the interpretation given literally. To say he was just being transported via air mail sounds very contrived and out of character.
Psalms writes: Ideas changed because of tradition, which Jews are quite big on. Jesus corrected many things when he was on his ministry. The writings in the Bible always have been consistent. Humans have not. No no no, the writings in the bible are not consistent! That is whole point. The ideas I mentioned are explicitly and literally based on the "writings in the bible" - not traditions. Or are you saying the "writings in the bible" are based on tradition? If so, thank you we agree.
Psalms writes: The overall message of the Bible is very clear and is on the surface. No it is not. The best evidence that it is not clear, is the 1001 Christian denominations that adamantly hold they have the right doctrine all backed up by ... "scripture" of course, and led by the spirit.
Psalms writes: Read without preconceived notions, and think about what you read, and the true message of it should come to you. When I was child I read the bible with the preconceived notion that it was true and word of God. When I became an adult and became more aware about the universe, other religions and philosophies and human nature the true message of the bible was obvious.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
Psalms writes: People then saw Christ's miracles, or saw the lack of miracles, and yet continued to die for something that was false. That would be silly. First note that when it comes to religion, emotion is much stronger and persuasive than reason. So what you find incredulous is a bit more comprehensible when you read the accounts of intelligent and sane people committing group suicide in order to catch a spaceship on the far side of a comet (ie Heaven’s Gate). Or even better read the account of Jim Jones where a large number of people died (both suicide and murder) for a leader that had *many* obvious and well known faults. Jim Jones - Wikipedia These people died and even worse, killed friends and family members, for something that was knowingly false. Second, I am assuming that you are referring to the apostles. What reliable sources do you have on the fate of the apostles? BTW it sounds like you have been reading Josh McDowell. I remember reading his books when I was younger. I was at first excited but quickly became disappointed with circular reasoning, false dichotomies, logical strawmen, omitted and contrived evidence, etc. Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024