Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill?

Oddly enough I was tagged in another thread as a creationist and biology hater because I questioned the need for childhood vaccinations. So I’m presenting my reasons, which have no basis in religion, for questioning the system.This debate, should you choose to participate, is strictly science. No faith or value issues. Just the facts.Here are the types of healing available to us today. Allopathy (MD): A method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects antagonistic to those caused by the disease itself. Naturopathy (ND): A system of therapeutics in which surgery and prescription medications are avoided, and preparations such as vitamins, nutritional supplements, and herbs are used to treat and prevent disease.Naturopathic Doctors Homeopathy: A system for treating disease based on the administration of minute doses of a drug that in massive amounts produces symptoms in healthy persons similar to those of the disease.Now to discuss childhood vaccinations We have been lead to believe that vaccinating our children is necessary to protect them and to stop the spread of various diseases.MMR/MR - Measles, Mumps, and RubellaMeasles - Vaccinations for measles was implemented in 1968. Death from measles had already declined by 99% before the vaccination was implemented according to the graph.The decline may be more the result of nutritional and hygienic improvements.
We are also getting feedback concerning generational complications.
Babies of Vaccinated Mothers More Susceptible to MeaslesMumps - Considered beneficial Had the vaccination and had the mumps. In 1992 the MMR vaccine had to be withdrawn because the mumps portion was proven unsafe. Rubella (German Measles) is more of a concern for pregnant women, not children. The vaccination prevents young girls from acquiring natural immunity in childhood, but leaves them susceptible to the disease when an adult and possibly pregnant.DTP - Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis Diphtheria - Is more a result of unsanitary conditions and poor nutrition.
Tetanus - Develops from an infection resulting from trauma.
Pertussis - This one seems to be on the rise again.There have been cases of children dying from vaccinations, granted that's not the majority, but there are also studies that autism is also caused.In the naturopathic realm the balance of the body is crucial. Vaccinations and antibiotics can put the body in an imbalance. We may not see the effects immediately following the vaccination, but they are surfacing. Naturopaths are trying to look at the underlying problems or causes, not just fixing the symptoms.Now given that I live in the rural Midwest and am probably within the upper middle class, I really have to look at whether my child is really at risk for these diseases. I have to weigh the possible side effects based on my lifestyle and what I have learned about the cause of these diseases. 10 Misconceptions about ImmunizationsObviously these people disagree, what is an end user to do? Who to trust? I'm an average person with a layman's knowledge of science and medicine. Ultimately I have to decide whose info to trust.So if you are for vaccinations, present your facts, but no ranting please. Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.Edited by purpledawn, : Fix LinkEdited by purpledawn, : Fix Another Link

The topic is childhood vaccinations, please don't waste posts on inane questions that do nothing to further the point of the discussion.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Vaccination is a means of getting the body's natural defenses to work for you.

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But do they? That is the issue, not homeopathy. Homeopathy just happens to be one of our options for healing.The information I provided shows that vaccinations may not be doing what they are supposed to do.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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An argument where your 'strictly science or tangible evidence' amounts in large part to web links to a source which is secondary at best seems to be exactly equivalent to a creationist coming here and posting 10 different links to the arguments they liked best at Answers in Genesis.

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And I'm getting vaccination apologetics.The links provided have nothing to do with being "my favorites", but I needed to show what is out there. That's what the average person runs into on the internet. Besides if I didn't, someone would ask where I read it.

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The Urabe strain of mumps vaccine used in one of the earlier forms of MMR did produce incidents of aseptic meningitis(AM), but the rate of AM is lower than in the case of mumps infection (Bonnet et al., 2006).

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Which means there have been and still are issues to address with vaccines. Is it a bad straing. Is it a problem of combining the strains together? Some people are going to Canada to get the vaccinations separately. Maybe it is just an issue of changing the delivery system.But it needs to be addressed and options provided. Maybe they need to find out what causes reactions in some children and not in others and figure out how to test before the vaccination.Doctors used to say cigarettes were safe also, now they don't.Studies can be wrong, so show me how one determines which MD is right and which MD is wrong using information available to the average person.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

So if the stats are correct and the vaccinations are keeping the diseases at bay, then we have the next issue especially those interested in evolution. Measles
If we hadn't intervened, would mankind have eventually developed an immunity to the disease? Are we instead developing a resistance to the vaccine? Developing a resistance to the MMR apparently doesn't give us immunity to the disease. Where does that leave us and our children?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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OTOH, vaccinations have literally or virtually eliminated many of these diseases.

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So when do we get to stop the vaccinations?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Well that's another way to read it and probably is more accurate. I've had a rough day.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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I'm not sure that people pointing out the hypocrisy of calling for scientific or tangible evidence and then providing absolutely no such standard in your own initial critique should really be considered apologetics. As yet you haven't presented any science to debate just a scattershot of claims backed up by at best secondary sources.

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I clarified that I'm an average person with a layman's knowledge of science and medicine, and I said these are things that can make me question the system. I didn't say they were science. They do have excerpts from MDs who presumably use science. I did not want faith or value issues. The point being, I can question the system, without being a creationist supposedly opposed to biology.So telling me you don't like the web site doesn't squelch the questions they bring up. We're all working with second hand information, unless someone here has actually done the tests themselves.

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There are issue in any developing technology including medical technology. We could all stop now and go back to the dark ages but why bother when the homeopaths have that covered.

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I haven't implied such an extreme. Homeopathy is not something I have found any validity in so far. Not sure why everyone homed in on that definition.Parents have brought up concerns about the vaccinations and possible problems. If the vaccines are essential to controlling the various diseases, then the problems need to be addressed. I don't feel that the medical world has given good answers to the concerns or done the research to find an alternative if they even want to.I understand why the mumps strain was withdrawn. I wasn't addressing AM. The fact that a strain caused another medical problem, shows that it is not ridiculous to feel that some element of a vaccine could cause future problems for some children. Doesn't most research start with a question or problem to solve?The idea of giving the vaccines individually might lessen possible reactions. Supposedly research has not been done in that area. Separate the VaccinesThere's also the issue of mercury (thimerosal) in the vaccines. So while millions of children have no problem with the mercury, there is evidence that some may be genetically susceptible. Research needs to be done to be able to determine how to spot that susceptibility.While the strains themselves may not be the culprit the delivery system might be.Supposedly there are physical differences in the brain when one is autistic from birth. If the brain stem is shorter in an autistic person, then it should be relatively easy to see if the children that parents claimed were normal before MMR have this characteristic. Even my limited knowledge would not think something introduced after birth would shorten the brain stem.There should be options for parents concerned about the possiblity of chemically induced diseases, not just a mandate.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

My husband and I turned away from processed foods about 4 years ago, but only discovered NDs a few years ago when I met Jordan Rubin, NMD, PhD.I finally found a good ND who helped me figure out what supplements were necessary and in what combination. I feel that a good ND can help avoid the less honest in the natural health realm. We are much healthier now.

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The better alternative which we used to vaccinations with our boys was to keep a healthy immune system built up via the above and see to it that their diet and life habits were so as to prevent disease.

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While I understand the national viewpoint, I think parents should be able to make an educated decision. I also think MDs need to inform people of what exactly any medication or vaccination consists of just like our food is supposed to tell us everything that is in it.Were your kids brought up in a rural area or city?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Thank you. My family give me flack over looking for natural remedies. My daughter was diagnosed with Clinical Depression (her father was eventually diagnosed as bipolar). ADD and ADHD weren't the thing yet. This was all way before I started naturopathic resources.Today they probably would have classified her under one of the ADD types. The research I did and what the MD told me in simple terms is that she suffered from a chemical imbalance in the brain. While zoloft in a very low dose removed the glass ceiling and she was able to reason and comprehend better, there were still behavioral problems. Other information I found suggested the ill effects of the chemicals in our foods. Since she was a teenager by the time we got a diagnosis of her condition, it was a bit difficult watching her diet; but we did keep her off sugar as much as possible even when she was younger. If I knew then what I know now, I would have changed our diet sooner.I use the book "Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by Phyllis A Balch. It gives good explanations of diseases, with known causes and how it affects the body. Then it gives suggested remedies and life style change recommendations. Your area seems to have a larger choice of NDs than mine does. Unfortunately my state doesn't have licensing laws for NDs as yours does. Needless to say I have to be careful of quacks. I had a good one who had medical training, but she relocated. I just started with a new one, so I'll see how she pans out.Even before I found naturopathy, I always did research on an illness to understand how it works and what conditions allow the illness to occur. Helps me ask better questions at the Doctors office.So when I'm looking at the diseases that are vaccinated against (which I apparently didn't express myself well in the OP, I look at the disease. What is it, how does it spread, what conditions are needed for it to manifest itself; etc. That is the science I look at.I think I conceded in one post that vaccines have helped to keep certain diseases in check, but I feel that we are at a point that some methods need to be questioned.Such as, why is it necessary to give a newborn baby a Hepatitis B vaccination right out of the womb? Supposedly the only means of contracting the disease for an infant is through it's mother who can be tested for the disease. Is it really necessary for all infants to have the vaccine?Since immunity doesn't seem to last and the medical world is advocating adolescent immunizations, maybe it would be more practical to give some vaccines at an older age. Rubella as I said in the OP is more of a concern for a pregnant woman than children. Wouldn't it be more practical to give the vaccine closer to child bearing years instead of to young children? Do males even need to be vaccinated? Whooping Cough is another that may be more practical to give the vaccine at an older age. Again, would males need to? Given our sanitation today in the home and in food production, Diphtheria and tetanus are two more than may be more practical and maybe safer if given at an older age instead of within the first year. They aren't vaccines that can't be given later. Now if the child is going to a sitters or daycare, then the parent might opt for the vaccine at the younger age.I just see no reason we can't look at options within our own location, lifestyles, and living conditions.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I agree with most of what he's said, but I do take issue with the comments on vitamins and organic foods. I find it funny that he doesn't consider organic foods to be ordinary food.Better grounding in basic human physiology, what a concept!But that is another topic and I don't have time right now to prepare a thread opener.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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I don't understand why you would be worried by them.

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I never said I was worried by them.I was tagged a creationist and a biology hater because I asked Buz how he managed to not have his children vaccinated.My point is that there are people who have issues and they aren't automatically creationists or biology haters.I don't feel that anyone should be forced to blindly accept what is put into their body and questioning doesn't make someone a science hater.There are issues and some aren't satisfied with the answers.Is our destiny to become dependent on vaccines because we crowd to many people together? We avoid the natural way to keep population down.NOTE: By processed foods (and that may not be the correct term for what I'm avoiding, but my husband knows what I mean and I don't know what else to call it.) I mean those foods that have preservatives, HFC, sugar, artifical sweetners, white flour, etc. We try to stick to what we consider real food.Edited by purpledawn, : NOTE

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Are you interested in starting a thread on the likely effectiveness of castor oil packs, PD?

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Not sure what I could add if you want hard facts. I only have my experience and what I've read (if I can find the info again.) in books. I would join in, but I don't know that I can prove anything to your safisfaction.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Wasn't rankled to begin with. I told you it was the best laugh I'd had all day. You're not the only person to ever jump to a conclusion. Your comment just sparked the topic, so it will come up now and again in this thread. Nothing personal.There's always room for questions and concerns when it comes to individual well being whether we have a science degree or not. Sometimes people forget that.My family gives me grief over our "natural style" all the time. Of course it does keep them from raiding our fridge. Unfortunately for them, they are eating at my house this Thanksgiving (today).

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The difference being that synthetic drugs are isolated, purified, consistently-potent, and regulated by law, and botanical drugs are not.

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And a lot of people are trying to get that changed. Chinese Medicine Gaining Respectability in WestChange takes time.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz