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Author Topic:   Are Catholics and Protestants that different?
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 107 of 157 (370547)
12-17-2006 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Buzsaw
12-17-2006 11:17 PM


Re: Baptismal regeneration
If this is the case, it is a very significant difference in Catholicism and other groups such as the thousands of fundamentalist evangelical churches church groups/denominations regarding baptism.
Certainly Buz. But that is not a Protestant vs Roman Catholic issue. Most Protestant Churches hold the same views and Sacraments regarding Baptism as the Roman Catholics.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Buzsaw, posted 12-17-2006 11:17 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2006 12:01 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 157 (370556)
12-17-2006 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Buzsaw
12-17-2006 11:40 PM


Re: Differences between Roman Catholic and Protestant Doctrine.
Come on Buz. As anyone can see if they look at Message 100 you took one paragraph out of context. That is why I always try to include all of the material and not just quotemine.
That paragraph was only part. I have also listened to you and MANY Evangelical Preachers and one thing always stands out is their concentration on Christ's Death as sacrifice. I simply noted that in that you are closer to the Roman Catholic Church than you are to some Protestant Churches.
I did NOT falsely accuse you of anything. I just said that you took one paragraph out of context.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Buzsaw, posted 12-17-2006 11:40 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2006 12:13 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 157 (370562)
12-18-2006 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Buzsaw
12-18-2006 12:01 AM


Re: Baptismal regeneration
Evangelicals are a very large segment of Christianity, likely the majority, but not sure about that. They do not hold the same views and sacraments regarding Baptism. Most of these do not sprinkle or baptize babies. "Protestant" is a relative word so far as doctrine goes. The two major divisions are liberals/conservatives or evangelical/nonevangelical. Most evangelicals are also fundamentalist. These are the ones who differ the most with RCC on Baptism and they are a very significant percentage of Christians
No problem Buz. I agree, but that is not then a Doctrine difference between Protestants and the Roman Catholics, it is a difference between Evangelicals and the rest of Christianity, Protestant and Roman Catholic.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2006 12:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 119 of 157 (370570)
12-18-2006 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by truthlover
12-18-2006 12:05 AM


Re: Differences between Roman Catholic and Protestant Doctrine.
I'm not sure, jar, that I'd agree that Episcopalians, Anglicans, Lutherans and other liturgical Protestants constitute "the vast majority" of Protestants. There are 40 million Baptists in the United States, and I think there's 6 to 10 million Assembly of God, besides Presbyterian churches that may be liturgical but have extreme doctrinal differences with the Roman Catholics on some pretty major issues.
But the topic was about differences between Protestant Doctrine and Roman Catholic Doctrine and not restricted to the US IIRC.
My point is that in many areas some Protestants are closer to Roman Catholics than they are to other Protestant sects. I am NOT saying one is right or another is wrong.
Obviously, there's not much difference in theology between the Anglicans and Episcopalians and the RCC, because the Anglicans only separated from the RCC over papal authority. The Lutherans, however, while being very liturgical and sacramental, but Luther's doctrines of predestination and salvation by faith definitely don't jive with the Roman Catholics.
The Lutherans and Episcopalians are pretty much merged now. As a mater of fact our new minister at my Episcopal Church was ordained as a Lutheran.
But again, it is not a difference between Protestant and Roman catholic but rather one between Lutherans and Roman Catholics and there are many differences between Liturgical Churches and other Protestant Churches.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by truthlover, posted 12-18-2006 12:05 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by truthlover, posted 12-18-2006 6:16 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 120 of 157 (370571)
12-18-2006 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Buzsaw
12-18-2006 12:13 AM


Re: Differences between Roman Catholic and Protestant Doctrine.
Buz, folk can read what I posted in full in Message 100 and all the other message I have posted in this thread. The record is there. Let them read and form their own opinions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2006 12:13 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 157 (370574)
12-18-2006 12:33 AM


There is no such thing as Protestant Doctrine.
I really don't understand what is complicated about this. The OP tries to show that there are differences between Protestant and Catholic Doctrine.
But there is no such thing as Protestant Doctrine. There is Episcopal Doctrine and Baptist Doctrine and Methodist Doctrine and many other Protestant Sects but no single Protestant Doctrine.
On some issues some Protestants will be closer to the Roman Catholic Doctrine than they are to other Protestants. On another issue the situation may well be reversed.
But it is NOT a Protestant vs Roman Catholic matter, it is how a given sect on a given issue compares to the Roman Catholic position on that one issue.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 126 of 157 (370600)
12-18-2006 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Hyroglyphx
12-18-2006 3:25 AM


Re: Differences between Roman Catholic and Protestant Doctrine.
Were not talking about mere symbology here, we are speaking about these relics giving some sort of mystical power to the possessors. Aside from the three I mentioned, Constantine's army was reputed to have in its possession a piece of the original crucifixion that Christ died on. They believed that having this piece of wood, just because it may or may not have once had Jesus body on it, would give them power to subdue the Muslim horde. Little do they realize that its not about trinkets and treasures of an ordinary kind, but rather of the spiritual kind.
Now, if I had a piece of the original cross in my possession, I would certainly be elated at its historical significance. But lets not delude ourselves in thinking that mystical powers can be found on it because Jesus' mojo rubbed off on it. Its a piece of wood and nothing more. The substance of a man is found within him in relation to his Maker. It completely misses the point.
Which as I pointed out is simply another attempt to change the subject and a strawman as well.
It is simply not related to Roman Catholic Doctrine. There are Protestants as well as Roman Catholics that believe absolute nonsensical things. How often do you see Roman Catholics kissing snakes?
see Message 121

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-18-2006 3:25 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 157 (370601)
12-18-2006 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by truthlover
12-18-2006 6:16 AM


Re: Differences between Roman Catholic and Protestant Doctrine.
Okay.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by truthlover, posted 12-18-2006 6:16 AM truthlover has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 157 (370637)
12-18-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by anastasia
12-18-2006 12:13 PM


Re: Back on topic
Maybe that is the simplest explanation, but simple is not always best. I believe as far as the OP goes, it is clear that Catholicism does not officially embrace pluralism, and that actually many sects are very my-way-or-the highway.
But again, that is not something that is different Doctrine. Many Protestant sects are also "My way or the Highway". There have been many instance right here at EvC that prove that very point. Many times I have been called "Not a Christian", one Protestant suggested I should be shot, and it is always other Protestants that make such accusations. The Roman Catholics members here at EvC have been far more pluralistic, more open to considering my positions and beliefs as valid than many of the Protestants.
Again, may I point to Message 121. I believe it accurately sums up the issues in this thread.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by anastasia, posted 12-18-2006 12:13 PM anastasia has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 136 of 157 (370722)
12-18-2006 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by mjfloresta
12-18-2006 6:03 PM


Re: Baptismal regeneration
mjfloresta writes:
1. the first, natural birth
2. being washed with the word of God
3. being washed (or born of) by the Holy Spirit
4. baptism
Well, since all four factors would apply to every person Baptized I can't see how that can be an issue involving Protestant or Roman Catholic Doctrine.
Everyone Baptized has been born, most naturally.
During the Rite of Baptism they are washed with the Word of God.
During Baptism they are washed (or born of) by the Holy Spirit.
And guess what, during Baptism they are also Baptized. Figure that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 134 by mjfloresta, posted 12-18-2006 6:03 PM mjfloresta has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 141 of 157 (370740)
12-18-2006 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Hyroglyphx
12-18-2006 8:06 PM


Re: Baptismal regeneration
What do any of those have to do with infant baptism? To reiterate, again, I understand how the ritual works. I'm merely saying that this interpretation of how baptism works isn't supported by the Bible.
You are of course free to believe that, but it has NOTHING to do with the topic. It is NOT difference between Protestants and Roman Catholics but between some sub-sects of Protestantism and the rest of Christianity, Protestants and Roman Catholics.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-18-2006 8:06 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 154 of 157 (370988)
12-19-2006 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Buzsaw
12-19-2006 6:28 PM


Re: Baptismal regeneration
Suffice to say this new birth verse has been central to a large segment of non-Catholic evangelism whereas not so with RCs.
And not central to a large segment of other Protestant Churches. So it is not a difference between Protestant Doctrine and Roman Catholic Doctrine but rather simply a difference between those non-Catholic Evangelical Churches and the whole other body of Christians both Protestant and Roman Catholic.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Buzsaw, posted 12-19-2006 6:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 157 of 157 (371137)
12-20-2006 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by truthlover
12-20-2006 11:27 AM


Re: Baptismal regeneration
I'm glad you brought that up. The Pietist Movement was certainly one of the major turning point, particularly that it was influential on John Wesley and the advent of the Methodist Church. One interesting feature is that almost all of the churches that Pietism influenced remained basically Liturgical.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by truthlover, posted 12-20-2006 11:27 AM truthlover has not replied

  
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