War on Christmas

Interestingly, many languages (French, for example) don't make a distinction between "of" and "from" at all. It's the same word.And if, as some theists claim, atheism is a religion, requiring "faith", then freedom to "practise" atheism would be freedom from religion.Isn't that what the so-called "war on Christmas" is all about - the desire to be free from other people's religions?

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I say that majority rules. If I lived in an Islamic country, I would just have to learn to deal with it! Of course, were Christians forced to put up with some weird Pagan ritual every year, we would probably want to secularize Christmas also....(wait a minute! We do put up with a materialist Pagan ritual every year! )

You don't even need a constitution for that. The majority can bully minorities anywhere.One of the main reasons to have a constitution is to protect minorities from the majority. Your Constitution tries to do that by guaranteeing freedom from being forced to observe the religion of the majority.

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Happens in English as well.Free of oppression.
Free from oppression.Similar, but in this case free 'from' oppression implies a past state of oppression.But if we say;'freedom of speech', or
'freedom from speech', the difference is too noticeable to interchange the words at random. If I am reading this right then yes, but if you take all mention of God away in every public situation, it is not allowing the same freedom to deists? Does that make sense? Like, atheism is winning as a world view because while we have the freedom to worship as we please, we can't talk about it openly anymore in politics? Probably, but then it is just a matter of perspective. The atheist will be free of hearing about christmas, but the christian will not be free to mention it. It's a lose lose, IMO.

Neither of these are person {B} So MLK is not a person {B} either.You have not refuted the point that person {B} is willing if not happy to commit treason (subvert the constitution) to advance his religious beliefs. And there are those that don't. Like schwubbia putting his beliefs regarding stem cell research above the liberty and freedom of families to let doctors do research with fetal stem cells rather than be thrown out. Why do christians always use this phrase? It seems like they are unable to pour a glass of milk without having god IN the equation.The declaration and constitution are very clear that this is a government "of the people by the people for the people," that when a government is unjust that it is the "Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."Nowhere does it say "and by the way, here are some religious beliefs that must be included" - the constitution itself is totally silent on the issue of god, and verbose on the running of government. The point is that it is christians that are the {edit} perpetrators {/edit} if there is any "war" on culture here, and that when it comes to complaining about it they don't have a leg to stand on -- there is nothing that ties christianity to december - it is wholely a christian imposition.Who cares? I would think anyone interested in the truth would care. Do a google and see what you find -- year and month.This is one view:
Correcting Popular Misconceptions about Jesus Christ's birth - ChristianAnswers.Net/christmas

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One problem with December is that it would be unusual for shepherds to be "abiding in the field" at this cold time of year when fields were unproductive. The normal practice was to keep the flocks in the fields from Spring to Autumn.

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A more probable time would be late September, the time of the annual Feast of Tabernacles, when such travel was commonly accepted. Thus, it is rather commonly believed (though not certain) that Jesus' birth was around the last of September.

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So, why was December 25 chosen to remember Jesus Christ's birth with a mass (or Communion supper)? Since no one knows the day of his birth, the Roman Catholic Church felt free to chose this date. The Church wished to replace the pagan festival with a Christian holy day (holiday). The psychology was that is easier to take away an unholy (but traditional) festival from the population, when you can replace it with a good one.

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This is another:
http://www.locksley.com/6696/xmas.htm

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Allowing two months or more for the events between the birth of Christ and the murder of the Innocents by Herod, the Nativity must be put back at least to February or January, 750 AU (or 4 BCE), if not earlier.

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After the Solistice, the days begin to get longer ...... and pagan peoples thought that was an indication that the Sun was getting stronger.

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Thus, the Winter Solistice became the "birthday" of several gods: Attis, Frey, Thor, Dionysus, Osiris, Adonis, Mithra, Tammuz, Cernunnos and so forth. It is a "solar holiday," marking the time that the sun becomes apparently stronger day by day.

Mithra, by the way, was born on December 25, of a virgin. His birth was witnessed by shepherds and magicians [magi]. Mithra raised the dead and healed the sick and cast out demons. He returned to heaven at the spring equinox and before doing so had a last supper with his 12 disciples (representing the 12 signs of the zodiac), eating mizd, a piece of bread marked with a cross (an almost universal symbol of the sun). Any of that sound familiar?

The Christian holiday was not always celebrated on December 25th, however.

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For the first three hundred years of the current era, there was no festivity of the birth of Jesus. Some churches celebrated Jesus' birthday in the spring time and some celebrated it on January 6 (Epiphany).

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Early in the fourth century, the Roman church decreed that December 25 would henceforth be recognized as the birthday of Christ.

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The evidence is that december 25th was intentionally chosen by the leading christian church (catholic) in order to subvert a pagan celebration. One that involves yule trees, yule logs, mistletoe, family feasts, etcetera. Good for you, but don't try to tell me that december 25th has anything to do with christianity.And the values of freedom, equality, liberty and justice have nothing to do with continuing to spread a falsehood eh?Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : corrected wordEdited by RAZD, : changed "protagonists" to "perpetrators"

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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Freedom "of" religion entitles you to practise whatever religion you choose. Freedom "of" speech entitles you to say whatever you choose about your religion.Freedom "from" religion entitles you to practise no religion at all. Freedom "from" speech would entitle you not to speak at all.I don't know of any fundamental right not to hear what you don't want to hear.

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I disagree. Rather, they are the antagonists. They are the ones who launched their "culture war". They are the ones on the offensive. They are the ones who wish to impose their views and beliefs on everybody else.

Neither gets it just right:

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pro·tag·o·nist -noun
1. the leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.
2. a proponent for or advocate of a political cause, social program, etc.
3. the leader or principal person in a movement, cause, etc.

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vs

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an·tag·o·nist -noun
1. a person who is opposed to, struggles against, or competes with another; opponent; adversary.
2. the adversary of the hero or protagonist of a drama or other literary work: Iago is the antagonist of Othello.

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A protagonist is usually seen as the good guy and an antagonist is usually seen as the bad guy (connotations for the words, synonyms), so that makes for problems using these terms here.Perhaps "perpetrator" would be better.Thanks

Well, golly gee, I think you just put everyone out of business. Let Bushie say what he wants, let everyone else say Happy Holidays! and get over it!

Well, I am sorry. You never said person B. had to be American. Perhaps I don't care to. Maybe commiting treason is not the biggest crime in the world. If this answer is not a propo, then please
rephrase to be more specific. I don't keep track of other christians, sorry. I used the phrase because it made my point. It does now and you would perhaps remember that some christians don't celebrate Christmas at all, and that some celebrate it on January 7. If it will make you happy I will use that date henceforth. It is common knowledge that Christmas wasn't in December. It is interesting and all that good stuff to do the research, but still, who cares? I am sure Yule supplanted some previous celebration, and so on and so on. Things change. If some pagan converts began to incorporate their new beliefs into their old traditions ages ago, well then take it up with them. I think we, in this day and age, can share a date on the calender, especially since most of the earlier celebrations were about the solstice, and science has now proven that to occur on the 20 or 21 of the month on our current calendar. As far as I know the only time the catholic church forced anything was when Constantine made the Roman pagans give up their celebrations of Saturnalia, which did not involve Yule trees, etc.For the past countless many years no one has been forcing anything. The poor Romans didn't even get to keep any of their traditions the way the poor Germans got to keep their trees. I daresay they could have kept their gods to go along with them if they had wanted.

really? when the dominent religion is christianity and there are more people who are right-wing that middle or left? i think it depends on what the subject is, and yes i think its bias to claim that the left bitchs more. i consider myself middle, rather than left or right, i hold some conservitive views and some liberal, but mostly middle thats just you though, not everyone views it like you, thats the point i'm making, christmas still has more religious meaning that you claiming it does
when infact most people who celebrate it, consider it religious yes you grew up saying it, so what? your argument just sounds like "i don't care about what you think, i'll say what i want and you can go screw yourself or suck it up" where did i say that we should do this? i was pointing out that a lot of people if not most do consider the greeting to religious, which you said most people don't, why shouldn't we change it? it works ok if theres just christianity, but not everyone is a christian thats a great assumption on your part don't you think? one thing i've learned working at walmart is never to assume anything, because i'm usally wrong, which is a good thing to keep in mind my sarcastic way of saying, your analogy sucks the fact is a language is only a form of comunication its not a religion, so how exactly can you compare them? whats it about then? the whiny ignorent christians that believe that from dec 1st to jan 1 its all about jesus and america being a christian nation means no heathen religions get a fair shake? i tihnk its just ignorent and unfair to those that don't celebrate a holiday, thus really being meaningless so, only because you think it doesn't, that it doesn't to everyone else? personally if it wasn't for my family, who are mostly christian anyway i wouldn't celebrate it, i could careless about celebrating the birth of someone who we can't ever know existed or when thats my point, you don't know this, happy holidays is better because it doesn't assume something about someone you just met, i find it better to use HH, because you might find someone who truely doesn't want to be told marry christmas, for what ever reasons really on what athority are you making this claim? because, they do consider it a christian holiday! really CS its not a hard thing to figure out, most muslums do consider it a christian holiday and why the heck would jewish people celebrate christmas?, if you think nearly a bilion people is a small number i'd wonder what a big one is to you
athiests and non-relgious people only call it xmas because thats what they grew up with, if they made up a secular holiday and called it "buy-lots of crap you don't need" day they would call it that both sides do this, different reasons, cons for money,power and control. dems for absurd idealist, squishy brotherly love hopesthe truth is say what you want, but don't be surprised if people get mad and wonder, thinking about the whys are there, but as far as i can tell you don't seem to step outside your own box much, i do understand your points, its easier, feels normal, and have been doing it for years

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I say that majority rules.

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Not regarding our Rights.The Bill of Rights exists specifically to protect the minority from the "tyrrany of the majority".

Previously you said: The question was: I will also note that several christian "leaders" like Pat Robertson have advocated ammending the constitution to put the christian religion (their version) in.I realize these people do not represent all christians.You have implied or stated that you felt that (all) christians were better citizens or patriots.What I am showing you is that when they choose their religion over the values of the constitution and declaration of independence for the running of this country that they are NOT being good citizens or patriots. The current calendar that has been adjusted how many times in the last hundred years? Please. The year also used to start with the spring equinox. Yes, because it has become traditional for women to earn less than men for doing the same job, so why should we care about changing that? It's nice to do all that research into the differences in pay scales, but still, they both make money after all eh? Who cares eh? So stop celebrating in december, and tell O'Riley to stuff it with his fake "war" on christmas while you are at it. As long as you find a date that is based on some reality associated with christianity (and has nothing to do with other culture celebrations) I won't fuss. That is my point after all: get it right. Do you have any idea how many "heretics" were executed by christians?Just for not being christian?People living in theocracies do not get to believe in other religions freely.This was also carried to this country by the Puritans, where they quickly showed that the oppressed can become the oppressors when they are in control.The record of christianity is lethal intolerance of other religions. Even of other types of christianity.It is the American values of freedom, equality, justice and liberty that provide Americans the tolerance to believe what they want.It is the American values that make America what it is.Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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No sir. I said that if a particular atheist feels at odds with what he/she feels is the overly deistic nature of this country, that same person MAY not feel patriotic to the same degree as a deist does. They can still be an awesome citizen. I am Catholic. The views of our founding fathers regarding Catholicism don't inspire me with much fondness. I consider myself patriotic in the sense that I love the land, and I consider myself a decent law-abiding citizen. Since this is the case with me, I can't assume that other christians MUST feel more patriotic. This country happens to have pretty decent values. But again, if we talk about some other country where people are treated like crap, who cares about being patriotic? Isn't being a good person more of a priority? And how exactly does Christianity conflict with the ideals of liberty, justice, and equality? I think you are just furthering my point. Christmas is not scurrying to keep up with the calendar changes. It's been the same date since about the year 400. No, no, no. This is not going to become a one-size fits all argument. I said 'Who cares what day Christmas is celebrated on'? I think it is nice and cute and appropriate to celebrate it on the shortest day of the year (or close to, now) and short of knowing an exact date, a date with some symbolism attached is just fine. I do not know O'Riley personally. For all I know there could be a war on Christmas. I don't care how it started, but if someone doesn't want it here now, they are the perpetrators of THIS day and age. Yes. And I know how many Christians were executed by Christians just for not being 'heretics'.

This is the second time I've seen you misuse deist. What you mean is theist. Look them up. Many founding fathers were deists.Certainly an atheist will not feel patriotic to the theistic values expoused by christian leaders that try to set themselves above the other citizens, but that is no reason to be less patriotic to the American values of equality, liberty, freedom and justice.In fact when this president seems bent on waging a holy war on the middle east they may be MORE patriotic than those who willingly go off to fight a "crusade" while misusing the name of america. The founding fathers new first hand the evils of theocracy and what the (catholic) church had become where it held exclusive sway over countries. That did not set them to outlaw the catholic church in the land, just to set up a country where NO church held exclusive sway or even any preferential treatment.The pilgrims on the other hand felt no such compunction. So that this wouldn't happen here. You don't seem to care about much.Bill O'Riley brings it up every year, it's part of his hate america show. He's the one who started using this phrase to divide americans.See http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/28/oreilly-crate-barrel/Classic right wing nut job rant devoid of reason. So you don't feel past injustices should be rectified, therefore you don't think womens wages should be the same as mens because that is the traditional result.It follows from your position logically. This also means that anyone that wants to rectify wages is a perpetrator of the war on men's wages.Or do you just not care when you are a beneficiary?Enjoy.

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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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