Lying For Jesus Award

The problem with your argument is that you completely ignore the Matthew 7:20 test:

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7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes
of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a
corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can]
a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn
down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

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If they were just individuals acting individually on the basis of individual ideas, then you might have a leg to stand on. But in this case, they are acting on what their religion has taught them in a manner that their religion has taught them to use, which is to repeat the false claims that their religion has taught them and employing deceptive tactics that their religion has taught them to use. What they have become and what they do is a direct result of their Christian training.Thus, the actions of these Christians do indeed represent Christianity, as they are the fruits produced by that tree. And by its fruits, we do know that tree of Christianity to be "a corrupt tree" (Matt 7:19).Now I don't know whether you believe that what Matthew says were the words of Jesus, but if you do then why would you insist on denying what Jesus clearly told you?And those non-Christians who judge against Christianity based on the fervent actions of its followers are likewise seeing those followers' actions to be the result of converting to Christianity. And when they see the resultant contrary-to-fact beliefs those people have been taught to hold and the immoral conduct that those people have been taught to engage in (ie, lying and deceiving in support of their god), then they can only conclude that they are seeing what Christianity does to people and hence they would not want to have anything to do with that religion.I would recommend an essay written by physist and practicing Christian Dr. Allan H. Harvey, "Science and Christian Apologetics", at No webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/steamdoc/writings/apologetics.html, in which he discusses these problems (though without invoking the Matt 7:20 test); short exerpt:

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[Scientist colleague] Albert knew that the claims of so-called "creation science" about the Earth being only 6000 years old and so forth were ridiculous, like saying the Earth was flat. Can't blame him for not wanting to be associated with that nonsense. But what's worse is that that was the first thing that came to Albert's mind about Christianity. Not the death and resurrection of Jesus. Not even the Golden Rule or the Ten Commandments. The anti-science noise had drowned out the Gospel so all Albert had heard was a false Gospel, one that was centered in a particular interpretation of Genesis rather than being centered in Christ. [Gal. 1:6-9]

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This is a very real problem for Christianity. So why do Christians insist on hiding their heads in the sand? That fellow Christians refuse to take their brethern to task for lying and deceiving also sends a message.

You have a real reading comprehension problem. Is it? Let's look? No. But does the bad behavior of one member of a group reflect negatively on all members of that group?The problem with Christianity is somewhat different.If you saw almost EVERY member of a group (Christians) exhibiting the same characteristics what would that tell you about the group in general?The fact is what IS seen of Christianity and racist, bigoted and ignorant people who seem to lie constantly, have a severe comprehension deficit and are totally dishonest. More nonsense copout and attempt to shift balm. It is the old "They are not Real Christians" defense, the old bit of pointing the finger of guilt anywhere as long as it is away from you.Christianity needs to clean house.If you want the term Christian to carry any respect, then speak out against those who do Lie for Jesus. Quit making excuses.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You win the ironic reply of the month award.The problem with your argument is, that you are confusing religion, the bible, man, and God.Religion is run by, and interpreted by, individuals. There are many fine folk who do not interpret the bible in such a way that it would give Christianity a bad name. Again, this is totally prejudice. If my friend decided to be gay, I would not immediately think he has HIV. And if I did, I would be ridiculed by every liberal, and anyone else who can see past prejudice.Remember, a false prophet is not someone who really represents what Christianity is at all. You can all yourself whatever you want, that doesn't make you one. (although there are many here who will disagree with that, that is how I feel, and it helps me to not be prejudice).People's preconceived notions about Christianity, are based on the actions of people, not the philosophy of the bible, and certainly not what Jesus did.The other mistake you are making is lumping all of Christianity into one category, when if you open the phone book, you will see the many denominations of Christianity, so clearly not all Christians think alike, and unless you are an expert on every single denomination, then you have no right to pre-judge a single Christian.

I don't see that with Christianity. What I see are the actions of a few, that affect the way all Christians appear. There are 2 billion christians in the world. Are all of them fucked up?Regardless, even if I did see that, I still wouldn't prejudge someone based on that info. If I was like that, I would have to hate many people. Maybe in TV land, but the Christians around here are not like that for the most part. I also believe that even if they weren't Christian, they would still be like that. The entire human race sucks, should I be to blame for it, just because I am human? Give me a break, it is not a cop-out, it is the truth, plain and simple. At least I haven't pointed fingers at a whole group of people, and then labeled them. That is exclusively prejudice.Should I hate every musslim because of 9/11 ? Do I think that they are all the same based on what I see on aljezeera? Should I hate all blacks because I have been mugged by black people 3 times? Should think all Italians are cheap, because after 7 years in business, the only people to ever stiff me where Italians? Should I think all homosexuals are perverts, because I have been sexualy harrased by them? (I must be pretty or something LoL). Well it ain't gonna happen jar, so get used to it. Your free to believe in your heart whatever you want to belive. Don't take me wrong, I understand what your saying, and I am an advocate of pointing out to other Christians when they mis-behave, and lie about things. Some people even choose to avoid me because of that. But still it is a mistake to lump everyone into one category. How am I making exuses. We have had this conversation before. I do my part, yet still there is no need to be a prejudice person towards people jar. Not every Christian, is a "bad Christian". Can there even be such a thing as a bad Christian? Isn't that the opposite of a "true Christian"?That is why I am telling you, there is no Christians, only Jesus. The rest of us are just trying to make sense, and other people get in the way of the truth.

Perhaps our sensitivity to this "attack" on Christians and our need to "defend" Christians is unwarrented. Does it not say somewhere that you are blessed when attacked?

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Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

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But on the other hand:

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Joh 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

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And:

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1Jo 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

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The world can see who "loveth not his brother" - who preaches at his brother instead of feeding him, who condemns his brother, who won't let his brother marry the person of his choice.If the world hates you, that's not an excuse to puff yourself up as a martyr - it's an oppurtunity to change the world's perception of you.

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That is a misrepresentation of what is seen.When folk form an opinion of Christian they base it on what is visible. What is visible are all the Christian Televangelists, the Pastors in the Pulpit preaching bigotry, the crooks and conmen like Dr. Dino and Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker and Oral Roberts and Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.Frankly, the image today of "Christian" is one of ignorance, racist and bigot. More copout and nonsense.What is seen of Christians is the portrait THEY create through the media. It is not some Hollywood mischaracterization. It is there very own documentary that THEY create defining what Christianity is.I said: to which you replied: How utterly disgusting can you get riVeRraT?Why ain't it gonna happen? You are making excuses through more wilfull ignorance. You say "That is why I am telling you, there is no Christians, only Jesus."That is simply a copout, a refusal to recognize reality.There are Christians. To say otherwise is just another of your attempts to point the finger elsewhere.Of course there can be bad Christians. Nor have I said all Christians are bad.What I have said is that the visible Christianity is bigoted, racist, dishonest and ignorant.We, Christians, need to change that image and that reality.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

We're not talking about individuals. We're talking about entire churches. Entire denominations.And we're not talking about preconceived notions, but rather the daily witnessing of persistent and determined misconduct as taught to them by their churches. Those individuals are not deciding on their own to lie and deceive, but rather they are taught to do so by their churches.What part of that do you not understand?Now, I do indeed believe that what those churches teach is contrary to Christian doctrine. I do believe that they are teaching false theology which is based on the false theology of "creation science" and of biblical literalism.And I do make an effort to not pre-judge any individual Christian. I leave that to that individual. Many Christians are decent individuals who truly try to do right and to serve Truth. But far too many prove to be incorrigable liars consumed by the false theology they are being taught. But I leave it up to them to demonstrate which they are.In the meantime, I have seen the fruits produced by those churches. According to Matthew 7:19, Jesus tells us what to do with those churches:

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Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn
down, and cast into the fire.

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And yet no "follower of Christ" will actually follow Christ and do as he commanded.

Yes, absolutely we are blessed when attacked. We are supposed to rejoice in our tribulations, I don't have a problem with that. I just want to point out the hypocrisy, because that is the thing I hate the most in life. Especially from people who boast themselves as righteous.

You left out child molester.Still, that is no reason to lump all Christians into one big pot, and assume anything about a person, just because they attend church. I guess you really do feel the way I do, and what your saying is just a front, and a cop-out, other wise you would have said "It is there very own documentary that THEY WE create defining what Christianity is.You meant to say WE, right? Because people will not change, and regardless of peoples belief's , most of the world has problems. Using religion as an excuse does not change peoples intentions one bit. Most people, I find are prejudice in one form or another, liberals are just in denial about Christians. Thats what I see with life. Jesus is supposed to change you when you become Christian, that is why I question the authentisity of all these people you call Christians.
True repentance must take place when you go to the Lord. Otherwise it's all just talk, and a poor excuse to act out what you really are, which has nothing to do with Christianity, as it should be.

Yes I did leave out Child Molester and that TOO should be included.But I do not lump folk together just because they attend church but rather due to their behavior under the banner of Christian. When the Televangelist speaks out as a Christian, he represents all Christians. Damn right "WE".Unfortunately I am tarred by the same brush; other folk judge me based on the IMAGE of Christianity. I must work to show that I am in any way different. More nonsense and jabberwocky. Why can't people change? What does Liberal have to do with anything?More evasions and willful ignorance from you it seems. Sorry, all I see there is more denial and self deception.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No he doesn't jar, not at all, that is such a BS comment.
With an attitude like yours, it is no wonder that religious wars get started. He only represents those that agree with him, and support him. Religion is completely subjective, as you are well aware, and it is impossible for the TVangelist to represent anyone who disagrees with him. It is a free country and there is freedom of speech.According to your line of thinking then, we should all be flag burners. That's fine, I'll do the same. However, you won't just be showing people that you are different, you will be showing people that they are a bit ignoarant, and maybe a little prejudice.It's only after you show people, that they realize that not all Christians are alike, and the ones on TV do not represent you in any way shape or form, and that they were most definately wrong for thinking so. I was specifically talking about liberals who hate all Christians, just because they are Christian. People can change, but the amount is so small that its almost nonrecognizable. That won't stop you or I from trying though. Because you are being stubborn, closeminded, and stuck in a line of thinking that won't set you free. You should have learned from history
that is not a good way to be.It's just hypocrisy, thats all it is. Maybe one day you'll see it.

I'm not sure, rat. I think jar has a point, although he may be overstating things a bit. As a non-Christian, it requires an act of will to decouple these folks from "Christians" writ large - even though absolutely none of the self-professed Christians I associate with regularly have anything at all to do with them. Intellectually, I understand the difference, but these folks are the noisy ones, the obnoxious ones, the ones that have television access, who are constantly in the news, etc. Yes, I'm well aware they represent a miniscule fraction of all Christians. And yes, I'm aware they are focused on their own agendas, which in fact may not be compatible with Christianity. However, they are the ones attempting (or in some cases succeeding) in legislating science curricula, morality, etc. How are we supposed to tell the difference? The point jar keeps pounding is that when the "silent majority" of Christians avoid actively and vociferously denouncing the highly visible charlatans, cheats, con-men, and all-around jerks who PUBLICALLY proclaim they are speaking for Christians and represent Christianity (even if their own idiosyncratic version of it), it is tantamount to tacit approval of them. Jar is just trying (in his own illimitable way), to get "True Christians" off their collective butts and clean their own house.Or so I read it.

If I understand you correctly, all who call themselves Christian become representatives of Christ. (Or in other terms, anointed of God)Having been so charged, it is our collective responsibility to make sure that our image is not tarnished or tainted in any way. We are far from perfect, but we are to acknowledge this..(As King David did, reluctantly when he got caught) expose our imperfections to other Christians, turn away from our sins, bad behaviors, and faulty ideologies and resolve to behave better tomorrow, right?One question that comes to my mind is how exclusive are Christians? IF there is a God, everyone on the planet will be calling themselves anointed one day. (Lets not discuss Hell)Its better to correct people now rather than see them tarnished and hardened later.

So far what you posted is "Yada, yada, yada, not me, yada yada yada." LOL Say what? Where do you get such stuff? What? Liberals that hate all Christians?Sorry Charlie but it looks like it is the Conservative Christians that hate Christianity. After all they are the ones actually attacking it. Well, no, it is honesty. And I doubt that you will ever see it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion