Lying For Jesus Award

Hi Buz,You're missing the point. Let me express it again differently.Falwell the fundamentalist is a slimeball.Coulter the Republican is a slimeball.Hwang the scientist is a slimeball.Of the three groups, fundamentalists, Republicans and scientists, only scientists seem capable of recognizing and calling out their own slimeballs. For another example, many scientists are pretty hard on Richard Dawkins for his militant stance against religious fundamentalism, some right to his face at the Beyond Belief 2006 conference that I'm watching now (I'm finally up to session 6).It would be nice to see fellow fundamentalists say, "Brother Falwell, you have gone too far," or to see to fellow Republicans say, "Sister Coulter, you have gone too far," but it doesn't happen.--Percy

I'd much rather be called a slimeball than a liar. Imo, liar is a charge that should be backed up by the evidence given that it is charging one of deliberately stating a falsehood when one knows and believes it's a falsehood. Slimeball, on the other hand is a relative word as to ideology. I don't see him as a slimeball at all though there's stuff I take issue on regarding his position on some things. I respect your viewpoint regarding others. However when someone I regard as honorable is labeled a liar, I'd want to confront that person so as to allow for a defense of the serious charge.I regard Jesse Jackson as a slimeball of sorts who exploits blacks but would not call him on a lie unless I had the goods. Thanks for clarification.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

I find myself with Buz on this. Not that I am in love with Falwell et al, but that I would like to hear some specific charges of lying, to appease my ignorance if nothing else.My opinion is that one's beliefs regarding Young Earth, Old Earth, and the like, are but beliefs. This is not to say that science has not proven anything, but that holding a position and even promoting a position opposed to science, is not lying. Lying requires a conscious effort to decieve. The belief that the other side is purposefully misinforming the public due to some underhanded self-serving conspiracy is common to both Christians and those against the Christian 'lies'. Both believe the other side is purposefully deceptive, when in reality, maybe neither are. The thread title may be more appropriately titled 'Willing to Wholeheartedly Believe Any Nonsense if it Promotes My Idea of Jesus Award'.

Well Falwell is a LIAR. Big time liar. It is also obvious that he is supremely ignorant and actually willfully ignorant. We need to speak out against the Christian Cult of Ignorance a epitomized by the Evangelical, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist Televangelist and Pastor.People like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Ron Wyatt, Gene Scott are totally dishonorable.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You can water down the definition of a "lie" until almost nothing is a lie.If you remember, the commandment is not against "a conscious effort to decieve", it's against "false witness". We are commanded not to spread falsehoods. It is our responsibility to determine to the best of our ability that something is true before we proclaim it.Anybody who claims to believe in a young earth, for example, has not done that. The information is readily available to prove that claim false. Anybody who wilfully ignores it is bearing false witness."Belief" is no excuse.

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Likewise, there is the belief that anyone who willfully ignores the evidence of the Bible is bearing false witness. The only way to truly combat this is to exhort people not to regard scientific evidence as falsifying the Bible, but as proving our own fallibility in understanding the Bible, and the hopelessness of attaching literal meaning to the words. On the other hand, what we think we know about science now, may one day be viewed as extremely insignificant or even wrong.

but at least the entirety of the scientific community recognizes that its findings and discoveries are tentative.those who promote YEC and the GF tend to think of the bible in inerrant terms.

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Or, you can understand the difference between a lie and being wrong about something. You can also believe someone else is wrong about something without calling them a liar, even wrong for believing what they believe. However if you want to say someone is 'wrong' for believing something, as in; a 'liar' it would be nice to know what evil they are doing by spreading these 'lies'. Whatever your notion of the word 'lie' it is a word that, in our language, denotes something said in malice.Maybe not everyone is as picky as I am; when I argue with someone, I make a distinction. I do not shout 'you are a liar!' as has been done to me, but say, 'no, you are wrong'.

Not the same thing at all. When the Bible talks about "false witness" it is talking about real-world events. The "rules of evidence" are very similar to those in science - e.g. Leviticus required two witnesses (verification). Exactly. That means we have to speak out against interpretations of the Bible that are false - e.g. a young earth.

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See Message 158Jerry Falwell is a LIAR. What's in it for Falwell and Robertson and Scott and Wyatt and Hovind and Hinn and almost EVERY Televangelist is money.Money!!!!and POWER!!!!!!!!They know that the Evangelical, Pentecostal and Fundamentalist Christians are easy targets because they have been kept from learning how to think and trained to accept ANYTHING on Authority.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No. That's not what false witness means.As I said, "believing" a lie is not an excuse for spreading it. Do your homework. If it has been falsified, shut the @#$% up. If you're not sure, shut the @#$% up. If you are sure and you repeat it and somebody calls you on it, shut the @#$% up.Whoever fails all three of those tests is wilfully bearing false witness.

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Hi Buz,You missed the point again. My change of terminology from "liar" to "slimeball" wasn't meant to be at all significant. Slimeball is more broad and inclusive, but by using it I didn't mean to imply that Falwell is not a liar.My point concerns the reluctance of religious adherents and politicians to call out one of their own when they misbehave. Whether its a case of just not perceiving the wrong, or of perceiving the wrong but ignoring it, who knows. I'm just making the observation.--Percy

The Bible is more the data which is presumed correct, the interpretation is what many consider as innerant and beyond question. All of our interpretations should be regarded as tentative, and subject to change if and when new, conflicting data is presented. Only then can a code of 'questioning' really have meaning. I assume that the same is true for both myself and for you; we have not seen sufficient evidence about the existance/non existance of God to change our personal interpretations.

So, if my sister calls 15 people and plans a party for my baby. whom she believes is about to celebrate a birthday, she has no excuse for her 'lie'? I am not talking about people who have evidence to the contrary, are not sure, or have been 'called' on it. I am talking about people who believe. Further, if my sister hears from another sister that she is wrong, she may still 'believe' she is right. In the end, party happens, based on a lie, but it does no harm for anyone involved. Sister is happy, baby is happy, and parents know the truth. Why can't you just be happy with knowing the truth?Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

I believe that you will know a tree by its fruit. For those of us who regard money and power with little esteem, it is obvious that none of these liars are lying for Jesus, but for themselves. They are lying about Jesus, and to Jesus, but unfortunately any stance I can take to oppose this would be an attack on the person who violates MY idea of Jesus' teaching. Unfortunately again, everyone, almost without exception, including myself, violates my beliefs about Jesus' teachings in one way or another. I try to do my part to spread the teachings which I believe to be true in whatever ways present themselves.