Immigration issues

Why would you expect my post to be similar to yours? Yours was irrelevant in its insinuations and erroneous in its assumptions.Mine was not. Bobby gets to why can't I? If China can muzzle its press and intellectuals, and privatize its community-owned property to enrich its new party-member capitalist class, why can't we? Does that work for you? If Iran can establish a theocracy, why can't we?As I pointed out, the bar to strong enforcement of immigration laws is not a soft-hearted liberal conspiracy but the huge corporate demand for cheap labor. The GOP-dominated Congress had several years to enact stiffer penalties (and strong enforcement programs) on those employers and refused to do so.Conservatives seem clear on the notion that demand must be stifled to stop the flow of drugs, yet wear blinders when it comes to the flow of cheap labor. If you want stronger enforcement, look to the corporate employers, not to liberals who advocate the free migration of labor. The employers of illegal immigrants collect FICA tax, income tax, state tax, etc.: the immigrant workers are extremely unlikely to cash in on those benefits--often the employers simply pocket the withholdings. Most illegal immigrant regularly suffer the indignity of unpaid wages because they fear deportation--how likely are they to demand the benefits for which they paid taxes?By the way, I see nothing substantive in your reply. Got substance?

There are several reasons.One is that the US has perhaps the most easily accessible borders and the longest virtually open borders around. While it is a fair sea journey to reach Australia, it is simply a walk across most US borders.One other thing is that Canada, France, Great Britain, Germany, Italy and on and on have Registries of Citizens. They know who should be in their country.How can we tell whether someone is here legally or illegally?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And yet, for some reason, the US seems to be picked out of the crowd. I didn't know about Japan or the Netherlands, but I did know that Australia had a huge influx of Asian and European immigrants coming in and causing economic problems. Its gotten so bad that they have some of the strictest visa laws in the world. Oh, forget about it. We'd be the scourge of the earth... Come to think of it... We already are.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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One is that the US has perhaps the most easily accessible borders and the longest virtually open borders around. While it is a fair sea journey to reach Australia, it is simply a walk across most US borders.

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That isn't nearly as significant as the fact that there is a powerful economic incentive for our neighbors to the south to want to immigrate here. We have a large border with Canada, but the Canadians aren't migrating here illegally.But that accident of geography has no bearing on whether or not the United States has the same authority to control migration enjoyed by every nation in the first world. Quite a few people seem to think that it does not, that is what I would like to better understand.

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How can we tell whether someone is here legally or illegally?

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I don't know. Americans have a long history of wanting their government to leave them alone. Because of that, we may never have a good way of knowing who should be here or who isn't. However, what I want to know is if the US government has the right to tell certain migrants that they have no right to be here, and if not, why other countries with more restrictive policies are getting free pass.

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As I pointed out, the bar to strong enforcement of immigration laws is not a soft-hearted liberal conspiracy but the huge corporate demand for cheap labor. The GOP-dominated Congress had several years to enact stiffer penalties (and strong enforcement programs) on those employers and refused to do so.

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I agree with you. Unskilled illegals are good for the economy and good for business, which is why the GOP has always looked the other way.However, I am curious about the lack of indignation for the policies of the Netherlands, Japan, and Australia. And let's not forget Sweden, where being a Nordic immigrant makes all the difference.In fact, there are a lot of countries with more restrictive policies--just about the entire first world, come to think of it--whose immigration policies range from the sensible, to the excessively restrictive, to the downright xenophobic. Why does America get singled out?

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Oh, forget about it. We'd be the scourge of the earth... Come to think of it... We already are.

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Until Pakistan has an earthquake or Sudan or Haiti need peacekeepers.

Well if there is no way to tell who is here legally or illegally, why bother? Again, see above. The economic incentives work two ways, both to the benefit of the US and to the detriment of the source country. The US encourages illegal immigration to provide a pool of cheap labor. LOLThe old strawman. Nothing like bringing up irrelevancies.What we are discussing is US immigration policy. What some other country does is totally irrelevant to the issue.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I agree that the legal eagles often get the shaft while the illegals get traipse on through and even be granted immunity for breaking our own laws. Bizarre. But it isn't an issue of hispanic or non-hispanic. I know there is a considerable amount of hispanics who have gone through all the legal channels. My father's side of the family is inclusive to that. I think with Mexicans in particular is two things. One, they happen to be our neighboring country so there are some physical reasons why they are able to achieve this more easily than, say, an Indonesian. The second reason is that Mexico happens to not have the greatest economy in the world. Canada is our other neighbor but we don't have a problem with Canadians streaming across the border because they have a good economy.But to reiterate your first point about fairness, I can't say enough about that. I know both an Englishman and a Canadian, who, after years of waiting for their moment to be naturalized, has seen thousands of illegal immigrants being immediately offered immunity. The Englishman served with me in the US Navy with an exemplary record. I mean, he's an upstanding citizen who is caught up in the bureaucratic red tape. Same with the Canadian man. He works for Boeing and has a secret clearance, which obviously is a testament to his character. And they've been less than shy to relay how much it irks them that some people in congress have actually suggested giving illegal aliens their own special drivers license for breaking the law, while these guys, following all the rules get the shaft. What the hell is that all about?

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

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What we are discussing is US immigration policy. What some other country does is totally irrelevant to the issue.

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That strikes me as arrogant.Studying other nation's policies, their successes and the failures, can prove quite useful to understanding US policy. As immigration policies go, ours is very permissive. And yes, there are benefits to immigration, legal and illegal. But again, it would be preferable to be able to have some say over who gets here. I don't see why that seems to be such a controversial concept when pretty much everybody else goes to even greater extremes.

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Well if there is no way to tell who is here legally or illegally, why bother?

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Apparently somebody can, because arrests are occasionally made.Maybe posing these questions will get things back on track by de-emphasizing the US:(1) Do migrants have a right to enter any country they please without documentation?(2) Does any sovereign nation have the right to control access across its borders? Edited by gene90, : No reason given.Edited by gene90, : No reason given.

We need the labor that Mexico, Central, and South America can provide. They need work.They are, frankly, in greater proportions than our existing population, hard-working, honest people. The primary opposition to their presence here is racist and xenophobic, waxing and waning with the electoral cycle.They are our neighbors--why should we look further, to nations more distant and cultures even more distantly related to our own, for the labor (and taxpayers) we need? In many cases, the economies of their home countries are unable to provide them with a decent living because their traditional ways of life have been discarded for extractive and exploitative resource and agribusiness endeavors that feed rootless, globalized corporations.In many cases, they don't come here looking for a better life but rather any life at all. They come here because there is no longer a life worth living where they were--sometimes because our "banana/beef" plantations destroyed their traditional, sustainable ways of life, sometimes because we supported the death-squad militarist son of a bitch who bankrupted their nation and polity.In those cases where our factories have relocated to their lands, the relocation occurred because the labor and environmental protections that serve us (however poorly) are not present there, and the new boss is just like the old boss, the land despoiled, and all parents can offer their children is the same grinding poverty they inherited. By me?Because I am a U.S. citizen. I bear moral, ethical and political responsibility for those policies I advocate, those I tolerate, and the consequences of my opposition to others.Because I grew up in a poor working class family, and I know that someone is being screwed coming and going when I see it.

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We need the labor that Mexico, Central, and South America can provide. They need work.

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I agree.

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They are, frankly, in greater proportions than our existing population, hard-working, honest people. The primary opposition to their presence here is racist and xenophobic, waxing and waning with the electoral cycle.

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There is some truth to that, but there is also concern for the law and security.

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In many cases, the economies of their home countries are unable to provide them with a decent living

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I agree.

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because their traditional ways of life have been discarded for extractive and exploitative resource and agribusiness endeavors that feed rootless, globalized corporations.

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I disagree. It is my opinion that the migrants to the USA crave our rather materialistic, consumer-centered lifestyle. That's why they end up buying cars with custom paint jobs, hang out at the mall, and immediately begin living like we do.Even if their original plight were caused by our consumerism, it seems they don't mind taking part in it when they get here.

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They come here because there is no longer a life worth living where they were--sometimes because our "banana/beef" plantations destroyed their traditional, sustainable ways of life

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They seem to have abandoned their "traditional, sustainable ways of life" voluntarily and I don't for a minute blame them. I myself will never understand what is so wonderful about high mortality rates, constant exposure to disease, and neolithic technology as opposed to microwave ovens and MTV. Frankly, if people wanted that, the direction of migration would be in the opposite direction, towards the last struggling remnants of indigenous culture in South America, not away from it. The illegal immigrants are voting with their feet, and their voting for our corporate, consumer-based culture.Has the hypocrisy of you tying that on an Internet-capable computer occured to you yet?Someday I would like to see some beneficent nonprofit group buy huge tracts of native prairie land with abundant food, water, and game reserves, for occupation by 21st century American leftists that are guilt-ridden about our destruction of "traditional" and "sustainable" ways of life. They'll be protected from our decadent postindustrial society and allowed to fashion their own tools, live off the land, and communally own everything with no intrusion from the rest of society. And they can see how they really like it. It's a little dream of mine. Till then, it seems everybody that suggests to me how wonderful "traditional" society only seems to advocate such a life for other people and not themselves.

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Because I am a U.S. citizen. I bear moral, ethical and political responsibility for those policies I advocate, those I tolerate, and the consequences of my opposition to others.

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Because I grew up in a poor working class family, and I know that someone is being screwed coming and going when I see it.

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I haven't heard you rail against Sweden.Edited by gene90, : No reason given.Edited by gene90, : No reason given.Edited by gene90, : No reason given.

What you had said, and what I replied to, was: To then try to change the subject to simply studying what other nations do is frankly, dishonest. More misdirection.The controversy is over the hypocrisies of the US position. We propose really stupid plans like the "Fence or Wall" that will have no effect whatsoever, yet we do not address the proximate causes.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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The controversy is over the hypocrisies of the US position. We propose really stupid plans like the "Fence or Wall" that will have no effect whatsoever, yet we do not address the proximate causes.

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Then we agree, at least partially.

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What you had said, and what I replied to, was:

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However, what I want to know is if the US government has the right to tell certain migrants that they have no right to be here, and if not, why other countries with more restrictive policies are getting free pass.

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Okay, does it or doesn't it?I apologize if I was "dishonest" or "misdirected" you but since you dodged the question every single time I don't think it was much of an inconvenience. Edited by gene90, : No reason given.Edited by gene90, : No reason given.

On average, about seven years. But here's the thing. You can come here on a visa almost immediately. And if you keep up relations with the INS and are a productive member of society, there is no reason why they won't renew that visa until they are naturalized. The Minutemen of the past, as I'm sure you know, were a militia and self-described patriots. I'm sure the picture that contemporary Minutemen are trying to paint is that they embody the spirit of that same nationalistic fervor. I'm sure there are a few that are. But I highly doubt even a considerable minority of them are. Do you personally think it would be racist for a Mexican to try and foster support for Aztlan? Or La Raza, which literally means, "The Race"? Is there a double standard? I don't doubt that either. My in-laws live in Phoenix, AZ, and when I was last out there, there was a shallow grave found out in the middle of the desert with about 9 Mexican immigrants in it. It was attributed to a White Identity gang out there, but it wouldn't surprise me if a few hardcore nationalists went out in to the sticks with weapons to handle matters for themselves. In what way? I don't know what is going on between Vicente Fox and George Bush, but Bush is real lax on the issue which tells me that there is some politicking going on behind the scenes. Bush is clearly trying to play both sides of the field. I also know that Fox and the Mexican government want more Mexicans to go to America so it can alleviate some its own concerns and economic problems. He's been a fair-weather friend to be sure and he isn't interested in our policies. As far Mexicans not allowed to have visas is not true at all because I have quite a few friends whose families came here legally. But see, the whole race issue is a non-issue. That isn't the problem. That's just a strawman being used, in my opinion. The issue is that too many illegal immigrants are streaming across the border and sucking up resources that are supposed to be for the American citizen of all races and prior nationalities. It would be the same if Canadians en mass were coming to America. All that matters is American corporations are hiring illegal Mexicans and paying them a pittance for a wage, which is not only criminal, but immoral. Secondly, they are taking jobs away from all Americans. The northern states, but particularly the Northeastern states have no clue about what its like in the Southwestern states. All I can say is that its a real problem, but it doesn't have to be. Absolutely. If an extremely malnourished and dehydrated Mexican can make it over with no problem, there is no telling how easy it would be for a well-funded operative to come over here and wreak havoc in San Diego, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Tuscon, Albuquerque, El Paso, etc... While I agree that stopping 12 illegal immigrants only ensures that 150 make it across successfully, letting people through would not make others want to stop. That's absurd. More and more people would come because la migra isn't watching them anymore. Resources would evaporate and the economy would plummet. Next thing you know, Mexicans and Americans are streaming over Canadian borders to get a piece of the pie over there which would in turn severely affect the global market. the value of the US dollar would be trashed and we might never recover. Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : add link

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

I'm not sure that's true, do you have a source? Ever see Finian's Rainbow? It's Fred Astaire's last singing and dancing part, so worth seeing for that reason alone, other than that it's a bit dated in places. Anyway, there's a scene where this good ole southern boy type named Senator Rawkins is trying to buy some land and Finian, with a wild scheme about making gold, pays the back taxes on the land and keeps it from the "Senator." When the "Senator" finds out that some Irishman just off the boat spoils his plan, he says, "An immigrant! I mighta known it, my family's been having nothing but trouble with immigrants ever since we came to this country!"Everyone always thinks the latest wave of immigration is going to take their jobs, lower their standard of living and try to change our country into the one they came from. And everyone is always wrong. I doubt that. While I'm not sure that race is playing a factor for most people, I do believe it is playing for a significant percentage. And, for those for whom it is playing a factor, it makes their opposition much fiercer than it otherwise would be. This is just bloody silly.Letting more in would not make others want to stop, but it would significantly reduce the pressure to come in illegally. As I said, I believe most that come here want to do it legally, but with few or no legal options available, this is the only way they can do it.In any event, a surge in immigration would not cause resources to evaporate and the economy to plummet. The surge would cause a rise in tax revenues as more people are paying into the system. The surge would give a boost to the economy as more people begin buying, selling, producing and consuming. Despite what the fearmongers say, I don't believe most Mexicans want to come here so they can be on welfare. They want to work, and work hard, to improve their lives, and I have never heard of a hard working person being a drain on anything.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat