|
Understanding through Discussion |
|
|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
| Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
| Author | Topic: Immigration issues | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
quote: i think i'm going to have a heart attack. Don't implode just yet... I'm sure we can find things to disagree about 
someone from mexico now, because of his experiences with the corrupt mexican police, might be less likely to trust our legal system... especially when people tend to target him because he looks "illegal". Its pretty simple for them and they ALL know the drill. No Green Card, no stay. When I used to do HVAC out at the subdivisions, there is a few times we needed to go down in the crawl space. On a couple occasions I found 10-15 Mexicans huddled up, gesturing me to "shush" because they thought the INS were roving around. It turned out to be the Code Enforcement Inspectors who's job deals with building codes. The point is that they know what's going on.
quote: because 1. we generally are more likely to target people based on race. By what estimation?
2. we live here. other countries have just as much debate over immigration laws, but we don't hear about it, because it doesn't generally concern us. Right, that's what I'm saying. Every country is entitled to securing its borders. Why are some Americans so grossly interested in making sure we are seen as the scourge of the earth, when in reality, we have some of the most liberal enforcement of laws concerning illegal immigration?
3. for so long, we had almost completely open borders and the promise of a perfect life here makes people think it should be easier to get in. Do you think the nation could sustain itself if every single person that wanted to move here could do so? It would very quickly go from a great nation for immigrants to a pot to piss in for every one. There has to be moderation and there has to be accountability. We can't just fling open the doors for any and all people. The only people that I know of that can circumvent the current system is defectors of countries where there are brutal dictatorships. In South Florida, circa 1960's - 1980's, America gave such amnesty to those fleeing Cuba. But I don't need to tell you about that. You live there.
our laws are inconstistent and often clearly racist. Inconsistent, without question, but how can you honestly say "racist" when the Attorney General is a Mexican American??? One of the main guy's stifling illegal immigration is a Mexican. Its not about race, its about economy. I think people opposing illegal immigration could make a better case against the US by saying that its only concerned with money than you could by saying that its all about race.
further, the ways people want to "fix" the illegal immigration problems are unreasonable and short-sighted. if we're so worried about terrorists, why aren't we building a wall between here and canada? because we're not. An excellent question. And I agree that alot of Americans are being short-sighted about the whole thing. The reality about the "wall" is that its a waste of time and tax dollars. The US borders between Canada and Mexico is about 4,000 miles. That's just too vast to do anything. If we were living in feudal China it would be great, but times are different now. They've already uncovered a tunnel that was dug something like 30 miles that began in Tijuana and ended up inside a San Diego auto shop. Anyone could do that again. Secondly, if a determined terrorist really wanted to, all one would have to do is get a hand on some plastic explosives and punch a hole in the wall that is most undermanned. Lastly, how easy is it just to take a boat from, say, Angel Island, Mexico, and land in Baja California? Walls just won't work.
we're concerned with brown people taking our majority. why do we only have a wet-foot/dry-foot policy for cubans who risk political persectution if they are forced to return home but not hatians who face similar fears in their troubled home? When I lived in Miami I thought that was a pretty messed up policy too. The excuse they gave was that Haitans are not political refugees, but Cubans are. The reality, I'm willing to bet, is that on average, Cubans have been very successful and have brought in beau coup bucks, whereas Haitans have not nearly attributed as much. Little Havana is the barrio of the Cubans, but there is no counting how many rich Cubans live in Coral Gables, Coconut Grove, Kendall, Miami Beach, North Beach, Bal Harbor, Boca Raton, West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale, etc, etc. Haitans are pretty much confined to Little Haiti. So, I agree with you that its a poor policy going on down there.
this may seem cynical and even doubtful, but it's the obvious reality. our policies are questioned because they are racist (even if they are not racially motivated... which um. i think they probably are.) This is how I think the racial animosity has started between anglo Americans and Mexican immigrants. At first Mexicans came over in small numbers. Nobody really cared. I doubt they were like, "OMG, brown people!" But over the last few decades it has become more prevalent to the point where there are so many illegal Mexican immigrants that the Americans are getting really pissed off that jobs are being lost to people that come to the country, don't have the decency to do so legally and don't have the decency to even try to speak the language. And then what didn't start out as an issue of race becomes an issue of race because race is an identifier of people. And so for some Americans, they simply grouped anyone that looked like a Mexican, they prejudged them on how they look, assuming that they must all be like the one's they've come across. The same applied to the Mexican population. They prejudged their anglo counterparts as being these snobbish, self-serving sycophants who looked down on them. And everyone with white skin was basically assimilated in to that. And so, we have animosity that appears to be racially motivated. Is that predominantly the issue? I don't think so. I think Mexicans want to come here for a better way of life, which, for face value, no one can blame them. And for Americans, I think they generally want to help people, but not at the risk of them taking advantage if someone's kindness, or at the risk of losing their own rights to give to someone who has no legal entitlement that comes along with being a citizen. Does that sound like a fair assessment?
we have a right to control our borders, and fuck anyone who says otherwise. but we have a responsibility to make sure our laws are reasonable, efficient, and just and support the principles of the rights which we grant to our citizens. Fair enough. That sounds reasonable. "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)  Posts: 4258 Joined: |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
quote: I'm sorry but that is simply false. Paying "sales" tax when you purchase items does not constitute paying taxes. How can you pay taxes when you aren't even on file with the IRS? Can't fill out a W-2 without a Social Security card. Can't be taxed without a W-2.... So, I'm wrong how? People payed under the table don't pay taxes, which is why the IRS looks for companies who do this.
If someone told you that they were lying. Its common sense.
If you repeat it after this you will be lying. You haven't substantiated how illegal aliens pay taxes.
It is also a very, very stupid thing to say. Don't hold back for me Jar. Tell me how you really feel.
When an illegal immigrant buys something they pay the same sales tax as anyone else. How did I know you were going to bring that up? "Sales" tax is a pittance to the IRS. That is not "paying you taxes." Ever heard of someone going to prison for "sales tax evasion?"
When they rent a place to live, part of that rent goes to pay the same taxes as paid by any other renter. Again, a pittance and something they can't avoid, just like all sales tax. Paying your taxes means that deductions are taken out of your paycheck. If you are getting payed under the table, you aren't paying your taxes, which means you are getting all these great benefits that legal Americans have to "pay" into in order to receive.
If they have power, they pay the same taxes anyone else who has power pays. What? If they have power? Are you talking about political clout or are you talking about electricity?
If they have a phone, they pay the same phone tax as anyone else. Paying what is included in the bill is actually you paying the phone company to pay its own taxes.
If they register their car, they pay the same property tax as anyone else does. How can you register your car if you're not a citizen? How can you get a driver's license if you aren't a citizen? Don't you need at least two forms of identification and a bill establishing a legal residence? Now, I would agree that many illegals have found a way of getting around it illegally. That's another issue all in itself.
Many companies withhold income taxes and FICA on illegal workers just as they do for a legal worker.  Yeah right! So they tell the Federal Government, "Hey, I have a bunch of illegal immigrants working for me, but I just wanted you to know that I've taken the liberty of deducting what I thought should be the deductions you would ordinarily deduct had they been legal." ???
Illegal immigrants pay taxes. No, they don't. "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
subbie Member (Idle past 1284 days)  Posts: 3509 Joined: |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
jar Member (Idle past 424 days)  Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
subbie Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
quote: there's always abortion. There ya go. We always have that.
i was kind of referring to even legal immigrants might take issue with or avoid our police because of their experience with the polic at home. also, in jupiter, just north of here, the cops purposely pull over the guatemalans and try to get them in trouble, even though they're legal. Nobody seems to like Guatemalans or Nicaraguans... I've even heard quite a few Puerto Ricans, Venezuelans, Cubans, and Mexicans loving refer to them as "spear chuckers." As for the Jupiter PD, what exactly do they do and how do they know how to target specifically Guatemalans?
quote: you're kidding, right? do you see anyone stop a swede on the street and ask for their green card? no. just mexicans. That's because we don't have a Swedish illegal immigration problem. Its not a race issue. How many Americans had a problem with the Irish? Damn near all of them had a problem with it. Its not race, its who is coming over in droves. Mexicans just so happen to be the one's coming over in droves. If Canadians were doing it too, I have no doubt that there would be all kinds of disparaging jokes about Canadians.... (as if there aren't enough Canadian jokes as is).
did i say we should have open borders? i said we used to and people got used to it. I'm sure soldiers get used to being shot at too, but it doesn't make it any better for them.
dear god, don't get me started on the fucking cubans. Hey, my niece and nephew are Cuban-Americans. Leave them out of it.
you know why the dictatorship is still standing? Because Castro didn't try to bomb us.
because our expatriate enforced embargos have created an environment in which it's easy to say that america is the evil. they also have not produced any meaningful change in how castro misused his available resources. I'm not sure I understand your objection here. When the USSR fell, so did Cuba by extension. They no longer posed a threat, but we still have an embargo on them. And to add, when the Cold War was running strong we did try to take him out. There were about 4 assassination attempts on the man's life that all failed. Now he doesn't pose a threat. If we went in militarily now we'd denounced.... again.... for the umteenth time.
of course he'd dead now. What? No he didn't. I mean, he's about to die. But he's still kickin'.
quote: congratulations. i have friends who are black. i invited a few tokens to my mlkjday party. but no mexicans are gonna be at my cinco de mayo party. they might take my job. So you think that Alberto Gonzales is just the "token Mexican guy?" What about Condi? What about Obama? Could it be that they are qualified for their jobs?
opposing illegal immigration is about money. however, the way our laws are built allows different groups more entrance and allows different levels of amnesty based on nothing legitimate. hatians live in constant turmoil and yet we have no amnesty program like we have for the cuban rafters. Well, we did go in to Haiti in '95 to quell the violence there.
the solutions our "tough on immigration" politicians come up with are crap. someone else suggested that we get tough on companies that hire illegals. that's a good plan. but it'll never get through the business lobby. I think a quick fix is to "actually" get tough on it. Every President, from Carter to Bush Jr has not really been serious on the issue. And if they actually went after the businesses that exploit these men and women, we might actually have something to show for it. And then they'd have to wait like everybody else from every other nation to do it legally.
we could start discussing hiring descrimination here. i can tell you where the hatians work and where the cubans work. but that's way off-topic. My Mom works with Haitans and Cubans...? But even still, lets not pretend that Cubans are often more in prestigious places of works whereas the Haitans are not.
i think it's more that they're living in different areas. also, like i said before, hispanic immigrants learn the language at the same rate as all other immigrants to this country have. it's hard to learn your first foreign language at 30. do you speak another language? I used to be fluent in Spanish growing up, but I'm losing it. I now have what I call "Resturant Spanish" where I know enough to order a meal and have a small dialogue. And even then I have to search my brain for the appropriate words. To be fair, the English language is a difficult language. But it isn't impossible. And for their own sake and sanity, immigrants going into any new home with a foreign language is better off trying to learn it. The thing about America is, like in Phoenix, Miami, Houston, Los Angeles, etc, there are enough spanish speakers in those cities where they don't ever have to learn. A good friend of mine's grandmother has been living in this country for like 30 friggin years and my Spanish is way better than her English. And to add insult to injury her son-in-law owns a company named "Ahora Ingles" which teaches spanish speakers English via CD's and cassettes. I think this typifies what I've been saying.
and they assume they're all illegal. Who is they?
my roommate's boss asked a job candidate a couple weeks ago when he could provide documentation to work in this country. he's from puerto rico. Doesn't every employer do that to every applicant? That's one of the first questions I've come across on applications. A social security number is usually all that is needed.
they come here legally or not and what kind of jobs can they get? nannies, yard help, day laborers, cleaners... dirty, unrespected jobs for dirty, unrespected people. They get jobs like everyone else. You have to start at the bottom. If you want to get around doing the grunt work, you have to have a college education. One could make an argument about discrimination more easily for employers that demand a college education than race. Are you saying that uneducated, poor white man can get a high level job more easily than an articulate educated Mexican?
who says they're going to lose their rights? Me and about 80 million Americans say that.
more workers and more consumers is good for the economy. That's like saying more gun powder is good for a bullet. There is such a thing called "excess." People that aren't working only means one of two things. They are either too lazy to work or can't find work. The Portland unemployment rate is at 6.8% which is actually a drop from 9.0% only a couple of years ago. There aren't enough jobs as it is. Of course, demographics play a huge role in that. But for the most part, adding more people to the equation with not enough jobs is making a difference. The construction business is the one thing where Portland excels in. The real estate market in Oregon is one of the only states with a good market. But like I shared earlier, legitimate businesses are being underbid by cookie cutter construction crews that higher illegal immigrants. So its peaches and cream for someone not even allowed to work here, but law abiding citizens get the short end of the stick.
there are no limited quantity of jobs that get handed out on a first come, first serve basis for these people to "steal" from us. I can't completely blame illegal immigrants for trying to make their lives better for themselves and their families. I mean, its not like they're out there going, "Haha, take that gringo!" I blame activists and I blame Congress for not doing enough about it. So, no, I don't think illegal immigrants are "stealing" jobs away from Americans. I think the companies that harbor them are. And quite frankly they are too stupid to realize that they are cinching their own noose. "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
gene90 Member (Idle past 3852 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
gene90 Member (Idle past 3852 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
gene90 Member (Idle past 3852 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
subbie Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
gene90 Member (Idle past 3852 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
gene90 Member (Idle past 3852 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
subbie Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024
