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Author
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Topic: Christianity, Knowledge and Science
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: knowledge and scotness' point
Yeah, you be right. I old and slow. The point is that we do not as a whole actually consider the rightness of what we do. When we filter the question through ONLY the Bible or any other such single filter, we limit knowledge.
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. We need to remember that the author of Timothy was NOT talking about the Bible. The Bible did not even exist at the time that was written. There is a great body of knowledge out there for our instruction, and we need to learn as much as we can. Limiting knowledge, or searching from the position that some sources are false by default, can never lead to Wisdom.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 81 of 221 (376236)
01-11-2007 1:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Straggler
01-11-2007 12:55 PM
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on barriers to knowledge.
Before going on to address the bulk of your post, let me point out a few other issues related to stem cell research in the US.
Stem cell research is a case in point (it is true I did not know it was just state funding that was banned - but although this lessens the negative effect the reason for the ruling and therefore the principle is the same) A little more history on how things are done in the US (there really is a madness to the method). What you are talking about is a ban on Federal funding of Fetal Stem Cell research only. It does not stop even Fetal Stem Cell research in the us, or preclude individual states from funding such research or any private funding of such research. Second, the US Congress has passed bills supporting such research consistently in the past and it looks like they will in the next few weeks pass yet another such bill. But here is where US political policies get somewhat messy. President Bush has vetoed every such bill passed. In the US a bill becomes law through a procedure. First it must be passed by both Houses of Congress. The Bill must then be sent to the President and the President signs the bill into law. The President has ten days (not including Sundays) to sign the bill or to veto it, return it to Congress. This is what has happened to every Fetal Stem Cell Research funding bill. The President has vetoed them. When a President vetoes a bill, Congress can override his veto BUT it requires a super majority. Two Thirds of BOTH Houses of Congress must vote to override the veto. (there is also a procedure called "Pocket Veto" used but I will save that for some other civics lesson  ) Now Congress is filled with religious folk as well as non-religious, and they have consistently voted to support fetal stem cell research. Therefore it is not simply religion that is blocking science. Instead it is just the minority body of certain religious folk that stand in the way. For example, a block as small as 34 Senators out of the 100 members of the Senate can block the override of a Presidential veto even if the other 501 members of Congress vote to override. Now on to your summary.
ANY conclusions (religious or otherwise) that are irrational and untestable CAN act as a barrier to scientific progress. Of course.
Religious conclusions regards the physical world are often by their very nature untestable (e.g. the existence of a soul in fertilised human eggs) Of course. In fact the very belief in a soul is untestable.
Untestable religious conclusions have acted as a barrier to scientific progress in the past (as demonstrated adequately by the Beyond Belief seminars discussed and linked to earlier in this thread. Of course. But religious beliefs have also acted as a spur to scientific progress. One of the main reasons science so interests me is I want to know how GOD did it?
Untestable religious convictions are acting as a barrier to stem cell research in the US now. True, but those same religious folk also passed the bills that the President vetoed. You must remember that there are Religious people on both sides of this and nearly any issue.
As the OP asserts there is an issue with irrational untestable convictions forming barriers to scientific progress and religion is a (arguably THE) major purveyor of just such convictions. Well, then argue that. But I believe I have also shown that religious beliefs can also oppose such convictions. Throughout this thread I have provided links to religious sites that would agree that unfounded irrational convictions should not be a barrier to science or scientific progress. Your complaint is not with religion, but with Cultures of Ignorance. To quote once again from the Clergy Project (remember that this is a document signed and endorsed by over 10,000 US Christian Clergy) ...
We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Straggler, posted 01-11-2007 12:55 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 90 of 221 (376312)
01-11-2007 6:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Straggler
01-11-2007 4:47 PM
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Re: on barriers to knowledge.
My complaint is that the very nature of religious belief all too readily leads to cultures of ignorance amongst those more lazy, less eduacted or less fortunate than the more rational believers such as yourself. Your problem with that position is that I am definitely the product of a Religious Education.
As a more complex case study than the stem cell George W example used so far - Would you mind telling us what physical role you would attribut to God in terms of creation/Big Bang etc. This is not some sort of underhand trick question, and in your particular case I suspect I am on a hiding to nothing, but I am interested to see if I could come up with what could be argued to be a "barrier" (or even hindrance) to scientifc investigation relating to even the most rational of irrational beliefs. I believe that GOD created all that is, seen and unseen. When we study Evolution, or Cosmology, (I don't want to just limit it to the Big Bang because someday we may even get a glimpse beneath the structure we know as our Universe, for example: string theory and branes) we are learning How GOD did it. I have got to ask. Throughout this thread I have provided links to outside Christian sources, the Christian Alliance for Progress, The Clergy Letter, A Catechism of Creation: An Episcopal Understanding and the Pastoral Letter from Bishop Sims. Have you checked out those sources? I am not unique or all that unusual. There are many, many Christians that think much like me, some even here at EvC and even a Good Papist member from your side of the pond.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Straggler, posted 01-11-2007 4:47 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 113 of 221 (376474)
01-12-2007 10:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 111 by DorfMan
01-12-2007 9:05 AM
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Re: Scientific study is an imperative for
If by your other post you mean Message 110, it began on a major fallacy and immediately moved on to another and so I just stopped reading at that point. The Bible is full of contradictions from the very first chapters right through to the end. There is also nothing of a scientific nature to be learned from the Bible. I do agree though that we must study science. What you did with the Biblical quotes though was not study but simply word games. It may have been fun and if it makes you happy fine, but to pretend that they are scientific statements or that there is any knowledge in what you did is frankly, just nonsense. Unless of course it was a parody and then it was great.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by DorfMan, posted 01-12-2007 9:05 AM | | DorfMan has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: on barriers to knowledge.
As I have seen from your comprehensive belief statement. Religious it may have been but religious education of a particularly enlightened sort that many of faith are not so lucky to have experienced. It is those that are the problem and my point stands. I still maintain that the combination of irrational and untestable conclusions regarding the physical world that religious convictions undoubtably do result in, will inevitably foster the sorts of anti science cultures of ignorance we are discussing. Indeed is the main cause. So the problem seems to be the method of education as opposed to "Religion". If there was a difference in how I was educated I would imagine that it was in being taught that the goal of education is to find Answers to Question as opposed to finding Answers to Questions. Way back in, IIRC, the ninth grade (when I was 14 or 15 years old. You can figure out where that would be in your school system) we studied semantics and techniques of critical thought. It was basically a year of learning how to learn. That seems to be missing in much of the general US education system both public and private. We don't seem to teach folk how to learn. IMHO, that, more than religion, is the greatest barrier to knowledge. If the vast majority of a nation's population has never been taught how to learn, can you expect them to be good at it?
As I suspected, little to quibble with there. However I would be interested to know specifically your view on the idea of quantum fluctuations as a beginning to our universe, the potential inherent randomness this represents and Gods role (or more specifically lack of need for a role) in this process. Honestly don't know enough yet (and as an old fart who is not as spry as he once was I may never know enough) to have an opinion on that. But perhaps cavediver can give you his views on it.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 117 by Straggler, posted 01-13-2007 3:12 AM | | Straggler has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 126 of 221 (376740)
01-13-2007 2:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
01-13-2007 3:31 AM
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Don't let Rob derail yet another thread with his silly posts.
Please Ringo. Don't let Rob derail yet another thread with his off topic nonsense. This thread is actually touching on some important points and Rob seems to be a master at drawing attention away from the topic to focus it on his little self.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 122 by ringo, posted 01-13-2007 3:31 AM | | ringo has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Is it religion?
Religion by it's very nature (irrational, untestable and relating to the physical world) in the absence of the sort of critical thinking you discuss will inevitably lead to cultures of ignorance that will conflict with scientific conclusions. Yet I was taught those very skills you agree would help (critical thinking and learning how to learn) at a Christian school, a religious institution. How do you support your assertion that it is religion that is the culprit? You yourself qualify your statement with "...in the absence of the sort of critical thinking you discuss...". Does that not imply that the difference is the lack of critical thinking techniques and learning how to learn?
How do you explain the fact that so many cultures of ignorance are religious in basis? When people have not been taught how to think critically and how to learn, they are more easily swayed by rhetoric and emotion. Religion can be used and over history has been used, and is being used today to oppose knowledge and to exalt ignorance. I do not deny that. I fight against that. I, and many, many other religious people strongly condemn that. The point is that it is not religion that is the problem but ignorance and cupidity. It is unfortunately far too easy to use religion as a way to con ignorant folk. The problem though is not religion but ignorance.
The pope at the time said the following regards the BB theory - "Thus, with that concreteness which is characteristic of physical proofs, [science] has confirmed the contingency of the universe and also the well-founded deduction as to the epoch when the world came forth from the hands of the Creator. Hence, creation took place. We say: therefore, there is a Creator. Therefore, God exists!" Does that count in your view count as placing a hindrance, if not quite a barrier, in the way of researching the posible causes of the BB? No, I don't see that as much of a barrier. Keep researching. All we are learning is how GOD did it. Personally, I don't see that as much of a proof that GOD exists anyway.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 128 by Straggler, posted 01-13-2007 2:49 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Is it religion?
You say:
All I have argued is that the nature of religion lends itself all too well to anti science cultures of ignorance and as a result has been (and still is ad will no doubt continue to be) a major, arguably the major, contributing factor to such cultures. then
I have not argued that ALL religion leads to cultures of ignorance or that a religious education preclude anyone from the sort of critical thinking required to avoid such cultures.
If any such claims had been made you have more than adequately refuted them BUT I have made no such claims. Sorry but those two statements seem contradictory.
jar writes: Religion can be used and over history has been used, and is being used today to oppose knowledge and to exalt ignorance. and you asked...
quote:
Why religion in particular in your view?
Does religion lend itself well to this sort of abuse because of it's very nature (irrational, untestable...etc. etc.)?
But it is NOT particularly religion. Look at the major purges of intellectuals recently and you find Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot.
If anything I am attacking the nature of religion as being highly susceptible to abuse by those who wish to foster cultures of ignorance. I am not attacking those individuals who are religious per se. You keep asserting that, but so far you have present no evidence to support that assertion and you also admit that I have refuted that very point.
In the absence of the sort of idealised, and quite probably impossible, educational paradise for all that would be required to overcome this, religion itself must be largely to blame. No? Sorry but crap. I had such an education, and in a religious environment, so how can religion be to blame?
If there was no religion would the problem of cultures of ignorance, especially those in conflict with science (a la OP), be less? Yes - I believe so. Sorry, again, look at the purges of intellectuals under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.
I had a feeling you might not.
You don't think that someone who takes the popes words more seriously and literally than yourself could potentially be hindered in researching causes for the BB? Even if only in the sense of losing motivation for trying the research somethinh which has already been attributed to divine intervention? No. How would that stop research?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 130 by Straggler, posted 01-13-2007 3:59 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Is it religion?
Well, I think we are just going around in circles so I don't see much use in continuing.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by Straggler, posted 01-13-2007 7:56 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 147 of 221 (387450)
02-28-2007 3:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 145 by bujitsu
02-28-2007 3:40 PM
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Macro-Evolution?
And as a Christian I take serious offense when you post something like:
This is not directed at you, but I do want to add. I, and many others, take serious offense at those who believe in macro-evolution, and accuse us of being deluded or hallucinating because our view differs from theirs. We are all coming to some conclusion based on the evidence we see. Yes, there are those who would deny certain thing to be true, even if they could be proven as a fact. As a Christian, I honestly have no problem in the long run if science can PROVE that macro-evolution of the species occurred. At this time, it CAN NOT, and anyone who says otherwise is looking at the evidence and coming to a conclusion based on their own delusion. There are deluded people on both sides of this argument. Evolution is a FACT and the TOE is the best explanation to date of how it happened. In the words of the Clergy Project:
We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. Those who doubt that so called macro-evolution has occurred are simply delusional and are dedicated to a Cult of Willful Ignorance.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 145 by bujitsu, posted 02-28-2007 3:40 PM | | bujitsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 149 by bujitsu, posted 02-28-2007 4:05 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 150 of 221 (387455)
02-28-2007 4:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 149 by bujitsu
02-28-2007 4:05 PM
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Re: Macro-Evolution?
We should be able to agree to disagree. But no, you say if anyone looks at your findings, and disagrees with your view of them, they are deluded and should shut up. You are, of course, free to believe anything. I would never limit that. However when it comes to truth and reality, it must be pointed out that what you are saying is simply false.
How can you say something that is completely unobservable is proven. The exact same way we know that you had a great-great-great-great-great grandfather. It is time that I and other Christians speak out. Anyone who embraces or teaches or preaches Biblical Creationism, that there was a World-wide Flood, that macro-evolution is not a fact is simply wrong. These are not matters of belief, they are facts. To try to pretend otherwise is simply to promote ignorance, an act of Hubris and Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 149 by bujitsu, posted 02-28-2007 4:05 PM | | bujitsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 152 by bujitsu, posted 02-28-2007 4:25 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 154 of 221 (387462)
02-28-2007 4:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 152 by bujitsu
02-28-2007 4:25 PM
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Re: Macro-Evolution?
Considering that biblically this is one of the worst sins a person can commit, the fact that you just accused me of Blaspheming the Holy-Spirit really makes me question where you are honestly coming from. Not one of the worst, the worst. I am coming from a position of Christian love in the hopes that you will see the errors of your ways and return to the worship of GOD.
You are just as bad as those who led the inquisition. "I am right, you are wrong, and if you disagree you are are against God!" I am NOT questioning your beliefs. You are, of course, free to believe anything. I do question your acts and those of others who try to deny reality in God's Name. To teach children total falsehoods such as Biblical Creation or that there was some world-wide flood or that the Earth is young and to do so in God's name, is to not simply demeaning GOD, denying the very record that GOD left us, it is perpetuating ignorance in God's Name. In the words again of the Clergy Project, currently endorsed by over 10,000 US Christian Clergy:
We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 152 by bujitsu, posted 02-28-2007 4:25 PM | | bujitsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 158 by bujitsu, posted 02-28-2007 4:57 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 160 of 221 (387474)
02-28-2007 5:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 158 by bujitsu
02-28-2007 4:57 PM
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Re: Macro-Evolution?
How dare you. Because I see things differently then you. Because I, and many others believe the evidence points in a different direction. I am NOT worshiping God. That is total hypocrisy. No, it is that I simply point out that you demean and belittle GOD. Sorry but that is fact.
You might not be wanting me put to deaht, but you are doing the modern equivilant. You are preaching that we should not be allowed to tell what we believe. There are plenty that believe the evidence does NOT prove macro-evolution. Believe the media hype all you want. You and others are free to believe anything. I have said that many times. However the fact that you and others believe things which are simply false, has nothing to do with reality. Reality is as it is regardless of what you believe.
There are scientists that believe the evidence does show that creationis, the flood, and a young earth are not only possible, but happened. They either lie, are willfully ignorant or delusional.
The fact that you have sided with society, because its the easy thing to do, is pathetic. Too funny. What else can I say about a statement that silly.
I want to know why you started getting so venomous, when I was trying to be open to discussion? And don't claim you did not. Accusing me of blasphemy of the Holy-Spirit is about as venomous as a person can get. I admit, I am honestly trying to not come back in kind. Sorry if the facts offend you.
On another note, just because, as you said, 10,000 clergy support something...does not make it right. Of course not. What it does prove is that it is not an issue of Evolution versus Christianity. The debate between those who support Evolution and those who promote the Biblical Myths as fact is one of Knowledge versus Ignorance.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 158 by bujitsu, posted 02-28-2007 4:57 PM | | bujitsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 162 by bujitsu, posted 02-28-2007 5:34 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 168 of 221 (387595)
03-01-2007 12:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 167 by bujitsu
03-01-2007 12:05 PM
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Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
Sorry Jason if the FACTS upset you. But as a Christian I am going to speak out against those others who promote ignorance and wish to force that ignorance on to children. If you wish to modify your statements to say: "I believe there was a world-wide flood even though ALL of the evidence shows it never happened."; or "I believe in a Young Earth even though ALL of the evidence shows the Earth is over 4 Billion years old and the Universe at least 14 Billion years old."; or "I believe in special creation even though ALL of the evidence supports Evolution." then I have no problems with what you say. However, to imply that Evolution is not FACT, that the Earth is young, that there was a wold-wide flood is NOT a matter of opinion. They are facts. ALL the evidence says Evolution happened. All the evidence says the Universe is Old. All the evidence says there was no world-wide flood. It is not a matter of people interpreting the evidence differently. Those who make such a claim are simply lying.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 167 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 12:05 PM | | bujitsu has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 169 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 1:08 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 186 of 221 (387732)
03-02-2007 9:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 181 by bujitsu
03-01-2007 6:02 PM
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Re: Biblical Creationism, YEC and Belief in a world-wide Flood are ignorance at BEST
I do not need to come up with an alternate theory if I believe the evidence does not support the current one. "A Hard-boiled egg in Cleveland" is not responsible for gravity. You are still confusing two entirely different things. Denying Evolution is a fact is identical to denying that gravity exists. When you begin talking about theories of what causes gravity, then you are dealing with the Theory of Evolution. Two separate subjects. Someone who denies the FACT of Evolution is identical to someone who denies the FACT of Gravity. They are the people who think they can step off a bridge and walk on air. What would you call someone who believes that Gravity is not a Fact and that they can simply step off the edge of bridge and not fall?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 181 by bujitsu, posted 03-01-2007 6:02 PM | | bujitsu has not replied |
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