Christianity, Knowledge and Science

Cocytus asks:My simple answer to your question is yes!The long answer is a little more evocative... let's think about it!Our religion is really just our philosophy. It is our 'worldview' that we use to tell us what is legitimate and what is not. It also tells us what is progress and what is not. And our philosophies' foundation is where the critical assumptions hide. If we want to know if our 'religion' is reasonable, we have to find out if the assumptions that anchor that 'worldview' are logical.Cocytus said:NO it doesn't. It stigmatizes knowledge of evil as terrible. And that is precisely why Judeo-Christian assumptions are correct.There is so much we do not know...For example, I don't think anyone had the kind of knowledge that Josef Mengala tried to shed light on, as he castrated and experimented on young boys in Germany.Just think of all the things we don't know. There is so much hell yet to be unleashed.So back to my simple answer... yes! Religion does make good people do bad things. And it started in the garden of Eden when man tried to play God. But the worldview of a Hitler or Mengala is certainly about the worse we've yet seen. But a different philosophy can lead us even more astray. Like one that says all knowledge is good and progresive.So we run into a fix... Some knowledge is evil.Let's look at the first religion that challenged the absolute:We've still infinite room to use science (knowledge) to unleash all manner of Pandora's boxes. Science is amoral (as opposed to immoral) so as King Crimson (I think) sang in the sixties, 'knowledge is a deadly friend when no-one sets the rules, the fate of all mankind I see is in the hands of fools.'Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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Mark 8:33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

You're predictable as sunrise. I'm glad you brought up that most excellent and glorious point! Who get's to choose how much like God we are supposed to be? What is humanity's perfection?I mean, God created rocks to reflect His glory as well. Does a rock question why God made it a rock? And will it instead insist on being a boulder? How can a mountain exist without the rocks?Everything has a proper place. Do we know our place? Or has our programming been altered because we will... what we know not?Isaiah 29:16 You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?Isaiah 45:9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'He has no hands'?How well can you handle what knowledge you have Ringo?

What ever Ringo... God has many qualities. If you think gaining one of those qualites (knowledge) without gaining the complimentary discipline (morality) that balances that power is good, then you're just so hell bent on gaining or holding onto whatever it is you worship, that you have become blind.

Okay, I'll accept that!Do you have all knowledge, such as knowledge of the consequences of actions new to you?

Please answer the question. Do you have all knowledge? It's a simple yes or no. So be responsible...We all know the answer... So do tell!Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

So, based on the knowledge you have, please make a decision to tell us if you have all knowledge please.

Is the knowledge you have equal to all the knowledge that there is? Are you omniscient?That is as simple a question as there can be!

The only game... is you... not answering... a question... that everyone knows the answer to already.

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Mark 8:33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

jar said:The reason this started is because Ringo made a comment in relation to knowledge:And cooperatively,,, I said to Ringo:Then, after he chased his tail a bit, you stepped in.jar said:The question is not inane. The most important questions are the simplest ones. And they are the one's least asked of ourselves in our selfrighteous priggery. Allow me to demonstrate... Allow me to serve...And thank you for cooperating! Now I can move on with my premise...jar said:And I think the most pertinent knowledge in that catagory is the fact that you do not have all knowledge.And none of us do by the way. If anyone is an exception, you may wish to skip the rest of this...And that is why, what I asked Ringo is so critical...: Not the best framed question mind you, but everyone get's the point, 'do we know the consequences of actions?'I am moving very slowly for a reason. Not to offend, but so there is no wiggle room for our malignant duplicity (all our names are Jacob).If we do not have knowledge of the consequences of our actions, and we know that we do not... then how can we possibly know whether or not we are going the right way?You actually pegged it jar! You nailed it right on the head when you reminded Anastasia that we were kicked out of the GoE so that we would not be allowed to eat from the tree of life.Only He knows everything, and only He knows the way. If He allowed us to live at our own whim forever then nothing would stop a Hitler or a Ghengis Khan. And given eternity in this place, don't think that you and I would have been any better. We cannot even imagine what chaos is. As miserable as it is in this place, we have it good!Again, jar said:That is incorrect. You have another choice that avails itself beyond the mere cause and effect of your current knowledge. Your choices are not as black and white as you pretend to believe.You cannot deny that as a fintite creature you're lost in an eternal existence without the supplies to build your Tower. But you try as we all did, but then comes the Word.As C.S. Lewis said, '...cool intellect must not only prevail against cool intellect on the other side, but against the muddy heathen mysticisms that deny intellect altogether.'There is a 'triune' option. And that option is to surrender our whole life to God. To admit that we have been hiding from Him, and finally give up our wealth of passions and beliefs; to give up our religions, and our ignorance; to acknowledge our bankruptcy and dishonesty; our utter inability to hide or pretend that God doesn't know exactly what we are. And to see ourselves for the first time, in desparate need of forgiveness, and with no option but to trust Him.No beliefs; no interpretaions... Just total surrender. If for no other reason that it is the only logical option with nothing left to lose..2 Kings 7:3 Now there were four men with leprosy at the entrance of the city gate. They said to each other, "Why stay here until we die? 4 If we say, 'We'll go into the city'--the famine is there, and we will die. And if we stay here, we will die. So let's go over to the camp of the Arameans and surrender. If they spare us, we live; if they kill us, then we die."That is Christianity. And that is knowledge.God will lead us into all knowledge, but only He forsees the pitfalls. He leads us in ways we could have never guessed. Saves us from traps we never perceived. If we do not trust Him, we will die.Isaiah 40:14 Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?Isaiah 43:19 See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the desert and streams in the wasteland.Isaiah 48:17 This is what the Lord says-- your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the Lord your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go.John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

And then you still die...The only total cure to our ills is the resurection.

Well first of all, your not sorry about anything.Secondly, everything I said is not jabberwocky, unless you believe in absolutes...You think it is jabberwocky. And that is a different thing.You already admitted you do not know everything. I know it was hard...

Thanks Nosy, I appriciate the meeting in the middle, and your not throwing the baby out with the rest of the cliche...But it is in the Bible... that is what the whole Bible is about! It is about power. Knowledge and power.And the cross challenges everything we believe about power.It challenges our right to power.It challenges our right to use that power.Jesus showed us how to use it properly... not for our indulgence, but for the sake of others.Look at it this way... if you had the power that Jesus had (assuming He had all power at his diposal)... what would Nosy do with it?I asked myself those questions long ago... and the answers stunned me.

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John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Exactly... And that is strange no? I mean, we all know that curing illness is good. But what if the people you cure are not moral as well and controlling their own desire to procreate?So, that was my point to jar... we may know what is good, but we are not omniscient and cannot see that in the end we exterminated ourselves for the sake of wanting to be kind.Our house of cards has many legs that are crumbling. Some of them we do not even see yet.Without the help of an all seeing guide, we are blind men leading the blind.
Is acknowedging that fact valuable knowledge itself? jar seems to think it is inane...It's quite a conundrum we're in. Check this out in recognition of the pickle: (I have problems obeying that last line.... still more to learn)Why would Jesus tell us to do that which we cannot do for ourselves? If we cannot take the plank out of our own eye unless we are omniscient then what shall we do?Sit here and die like leppers? Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Be cause when I gave my life to Him, I spoke His name... Jesus. Not to mention that this Spirit that now posesses me and gives me knowledge as He sees fit, also will not permit me to do wrong without acknowledging such. Honesty does not come from satan. Your own philosophy is a religion, you just don't realize that yet because you lack such knowledge that I try to give, and it appears that you absolutely refuse any such knowledge that might reveal that to you.Your statement about mystical beliefs is the old Humean position (and even that is new knowledge to you. You thought it novel didn't you? Or that everybody knows that what you said is true?).It's become one of the assumptions of our post-modern culture. it's never even questioned. It is a metaphysical statement that proposes that metaphysical statements are not trustworthy. Go figure... you killed your own absolute. It is a violent contradiction.You exemplify G.K. Chestertons's Suicide of thought:(Orthodoxy, Chapter title - The Suicide of Thought / 1908)As the professor in The Lion The Witch And The Wardrobe asked, And... will they let you reason with them about anything different? Or are they absolutely resoved to have it their way?

Well, we all have faith in something. I gave up on pantheism a long time ago for reasons we can get into in a different thread. But it does meld nicely with the evolutionary theory. It's going to be a big hit. An absolute craze!It appears I've about worn my welcome. people are getting pissy. The thread is y'alls...