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Author | Topic: for the record (re: guns thread) | |||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Oh, I didn't realize that lakes were specifically designed to have cars driven in to them.
quote: Excuse me? Are you seriously suggesting that any of us advocating for better gun control do not also advocate for all the actions that would lead to a better society, such as human and civil rights, sound economic policy and economic fairness for all, healthcare for all, a social safety net, a good education for all, a decent place to live for all, etc. etc. etc.?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: A few bad apples? Phat, 30,000 people die from guns every year, pretty close behind automobile deaths. That's not a few bad apples. That's a good portion of the orchard that's diseased.
quote: You don't give a can of gasoline to someone who is on fire.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Dude, I appreciate that between the two of us, I'm the one that gets to be the good cop in this thread, as it so rarely happens, but please, stop calling Jon names.
It's lazy and undiciplined. Do it as much as you want in your head or out loud at your computer screen, but stop writing it down. You are fucking up my thread.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Some advice to you from someone who's been slogging away in this forum for a long time... Don't try to convince a stubborn or disingenuous opponent specifically. Remember that there are many lurkers who never post, and you are really speaking to them. THEY read the posts, even if your opponent doesn't appear to be. Being abusive to others never, ever looks good.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Phat, 30,000 people die from guns every year, pretty close behind automobile deaths. quote: Jon, IIRC, I have posted that statistic twice already. Once in this thread (in a link to the article about the Harvard researcher's work), and once in text form in the Guns thread. I am sick and tired of being the only one doing research on this subject, or even taking the time to post and repost sources. You've participated in both threads, so unless you are not reading my posts, you should have gotten that information twice already. Go look it up.
quote: I don't think he is. In any case, nothing he wrote indicated such. Only he can clear that up.
You don't give a can of gasoline to someone who is on fire. quote: Phat wrote:
quote: My point was, if society's "mental condition" is so obviously unstable that it is likely to be a danger to itself (it is "on fire"), you don't want to make it ridiculously easy for the populace to get weapons that makes killing many people quick and effortless (that would be analogous to pouring gasoline on the person on fire). The fire/gasoline analogy was much more elegant than the labored, clunky explanation, but there you go.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No kidding. Where is it written that we can't work on all of them at once? Excuse me, but tens of thousands of people DIE every year from guns, mostly handguns. Yes, social ills like poverty, racism and misogyny create tensions between people. Yes, tensions between people sometimes lead to violence. Wouldn't it be better, as we work on solutions to these problems of poverty, racism, and misogyny, for less of this inevitable violence to be lethal? We can prevent many of those tens of thousands of deaths a LOT more quickly through intelligent gun laws and actual enforcement than we can through the long, difficult process of societal change. The latter takes generations; the former takes the stroke of a pen. Shouldn't we NOT throw gasoline on the fire?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yeah, right, Jon. ------------------------ See Nuggin? When he is backed into a corner, he can use the excuse of your poor treatment of him to run away. This is (almost) entirely your doing.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Yes, I know, and doesn't he look foolish for doing so, particularly since he accused me of an ad hominen but I explained in another post that it wasn't one? If he runs away with no valid reason to do so, that means we win. However, if you descend to ad hominem, he does have a valid reason to ignore you and withdraw from the debate, no matter how poorly he is doing. We don't want to give him that out.
quote: Yes, and all the people who are following this debate got to read both my and your damning documentation of his performance in the previous thread. Remember, we aren't actually trying to get him to change, because he's just dug in his heels at this point. We are really speaking to the lurkers.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: We aren't suggesting that guns be banned in the US.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Laws covering the inappropriate sale of guns are not so common, and are generally opposed by the gun lobbies. For example, the gun show and private sale loopholes. Laws covering the inappropriate storage of firearms are also not so common. All those rules that you listed about how you use and secure your firearms are great, so why shouldn't we legislate them as a requirement for ownership of firearms? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
What about surface-to-air missiles?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It doesn't do much to prevent gun death if you go after the people after they've killed someone. For the millionth time... The violence would still happen and would be just as common. But instead of someone getting shot to death in an instant in a bar fight, they would only be punched or hit with a bottle, both unpleasant to experience but quite survivable. Like, they probably won't even have to go to the hospital. Easily-obtainable guns make the violence that is going to happen anyway much more lethal. Easy access to guns in the US is hardly a "mystical" idea. It is quite thoroughly documented.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Try again, please.
This time, addressing the issues would be preferred.
quote: It doesn't do much to prevent gun death if you go after the people after they've killed someone. For the millionth time... The violence would still happen and would be just as common. But instead of someone getting shot to death in an instant in a bar fight, they would only be punched or hit with a bottle, both unpleasant to experience but quite survivable. Like, they probably won't even have to go to the hospital. Easily-obtainable guns make the violence that is going to happen anyway much more lethal. Easy access to guns in the US is hardly a "mystical" idea. It is quite thoroughly documented.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Actually, this is exactly what I have repeatedly said in this thread and the previous Guns thread. All together now... Violence is going to happen. Guns make this inevitable violence much more likely to result in deaths through shootings. Guns do, in fact, increase deaths. Do I really need to reference my Harvard public health researcher again? To bring us back on topic, I simply cannot fathom why you are having such incredible difficulty with understanding my position, and get it repeatedly and profoundly wrong. This, despite many, many, many corrections. With a whole thread devoted to those corrections. Utterly mystifying.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Lovely, OCW.
We're good. And, sorry for jumping on you. It wasn't my intent but that doesn't mean it doesan't sometimes happen. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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