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Author
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Topic: for the record (re: guns thread)
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 1 of 305 (399100)
05-03-2007 9:21 PM
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In the now-closed Guns thread, Jon made the following claim in Message 292:
quote:
A claim that has been made here over and over again is that increased guns = increased violence
That is a strawman. Not only is that a strawman, it was corrected over and over and over and over again by me and others in that thread. I'd like to set the record straight here. Some quotes from me in that thread (bolding added):
Message 237:
The violence will still happen, but it is not likely to be anywhere near as lethal as when there are guns around. Message 220:
The evidence shows that the US is no more violent than most other industrialized nations, but the violence that does happen tends to be far more lethal. This is because of handguns. Message 174:
Mind you, there would still be plenty of violence, just not nearly as many deaths. Message 156:
Nobody is saying that all violence would disappear if guns also disappeared, so you and everybody else, STOP USING THAT STRAWMAN. Easy access to guns makes the violence that is going to happen anyway much more lethal, especially easily concealed handguns that can fire many rounds very quickly. Message 154:
People would be just as inclined to be violent, and would act on those inclinations just as often, but fewer people would die without such easy access to handguns. Me quoting Dr. Hemenway in Harvard magazine about his research on violence in the US in Message 130:
Statistically, the United States is not a particularly violent society. Although gun proponents like to compare this country with hot spots like Colombia, Mexico, and Estonia (making America appear a truly peaceable kingdom), a more relevant comparison is against other high-income, industrialized nations. The percentage of the U.S. population victimized in 2000 by crimes like assault, car theft, burglary, robbery, and sexual incidents is about average for 17 industrialized countries, and lower on many indices than Canada, Australia, or New Zealand. "The only thing that jumps out is lethal violence," Hemenway says. Violence, pace H. Rap Brown, is not "as American as cherry pie," but American violence does tend to end in death. The reason, plain and simple, is guns. What I want to know is how the heck can anybody read my posts in that thread and just ignore the SEVEN seperate times I repeated the same simple idea? And then there were the multiple times Nuggin said that same thing... It wasn't just Jon, either. Edited by nator, : No reason given. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 3 of 305 (399147)
05-04-2007 9:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 2 by FliesOnly
05-04-2007 7:27 AM
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poor Jon
quote:
Personally, I liked it when he suggested that you should not be a gun owner cuz you would probably shoot someone just to get the last word...when earlier he admitted that he put a bullet between someones eyes if he felt that they had grabbed him in a sexual way. Good God, I hope he's not married.
I thought his post was really funny, because he just went on and on about how I have to get the last word, not having the least bit self-awareness of the fact that that was exactly what he was doing! What I think is happening, actually, is that he thinks that I am just trying to "get in the last word", but what I am actually doing many times is trying to get people to actually address the issues. I mean, this is a debate board. Why should I let an illogical, factually incorrect, or fallacious argument remain unaddressed? It's not my problem if those making such arguments can't defend them. The first sentence of his post addressed the message he was responding to (psychological evaluations before gun purchases) but the rest was just a silly personal attack (doubly ironic because he ran way from the thread earlier, accusing me of the same). It can be viewed here, and here is my analysis below: Here's my post that he quoted:
Unless I am mistaken, a magistrate put him in a mental institution involuntarily because he was considered a danger to himself and others. That should be part of the public record, and therefore should pop up on a background check. People like that shouldn't be allowed to purchase a firearm without a lengthy waiting period and additional criminal and psychological evaluations. We also should not be depending upon the customer to be truthful on the application to purchase the gun. This first question is a good one, relevant and appropriate:
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How in-depth will the psychological analysis be?
Of course, he lets his temper get the best of him for the next two paragraphs, completely obliterating any reason for me to have to address the very good question he posed.
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Next to everyone has some sort of mental/emotional problems.
Yes, but clearly this is not what I am talking about above. I am talking about people with such serious mental health issues that they were involuntarily committed to a mental institution.
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You, for example, are dependent on your need to always have the final say, no matter if you're wrong or right.
No, I am not "dependent" upon any "need" of this sort. The above is just sour grapes that his posts are shredded, most recently in the Guns thread, but many times previously. I actually do like to get in the last word, but it is most certainly almost always when I am right, or at least have prevailed in the debate. Jon didn't even reply at all to several of my rebuttals of his posts in that thread, and erected many strawmen, and the only evidence he provided was to counter one of his strawmen; a claim that nobody made in the thread.
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That seems like it'd make you pretty dangerous with a gun, no?
Gee, let's compare. I like to get in the last word on an internet debate board, it is true, but Jon has explicitly stated that he would have no problem with shooting someone dead just for grabbing him in a sexual way. I'd be happy for a psychologist to evaluate those two statements and determine which of us would be more likely to be inappropriately violent with a gun.
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Should people like you have the right to carry a firearm?
You seem like you'd be more likely to resort to putting a bullet in someone's chest just to finish an argument than would someone who's not so obsessive about always having the final say.
Do I really? After reading all of my posts in that thread, does Jon really truly believe that I am likely to resort to violence just to have the last word? Or, is it just another jon ad hominem that he "resorts" to when he is losing another debate? quote:
When I saw this thread, I actually thought that that was what you were going to address...for the record.
Yeah, well, Jon kind of retracted his statement about not hesitating to put a bullet between someone's eyes if they grabbed him in an unwanted sexual way, saying he was only "joking", but it is disturbing that he would even suggest such a thing. There wasn't any indication that he was "joking" when he wrote it, either, so perhaps it was just an attempt to back out the argument without retracting. I also thought it was amusing that Jon would think I was upset by pointing out that I like to get the last word in. Well, duh! Does he think I don't know this about myself? (clearly, he doesn't know it about himself) I wasn't going to respond at all, because it was just so silly and contrived, but since you've brought it up, well, why not? We all know that I can't help myself regarding getting in the last word, so much so that I will blithely commit MURDER to make sure I have my way! BWAHAHAHAHA!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by FliesOnly, posted 05-04-2007 7:27 AM | | FliesOnly has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 4 by Larni, posted 05-04-2007 9:51 AM | | nator has replied | | | Message 5 by Larni, posted 05-04-2007 9:52 AM | | nator has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 6 of 305 (399161)
05-04-2007 10:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 4 by Larni
05-04-2007 9:51 AM
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Re: poor Jon
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Comming from the UK I have no idea why Americans feel the need to have guns in the hands of civilians.
The emphasis on individualism, placing a low value on compromise and many mythic holdovers from the "wild west", are my suggested reasons. Patriarchy helps, too. Mostly, though, the liberal interpretation of the Constitution, along with good old capitalism has allowed the gun culture to get completely out of hand. We in America are like spoiled little children used to always getting our own way and not having to compromise, negotiate, or back down. In fact, "backing down", even when it would be the wisest move, is considered horribly weak and distatseful in American culture.
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With that in mind; am I wrong to see guns as a 'force multiplier' in terms of a confrontation?
Nope, you aren't wrong.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Larni, posted 05-04-2007 9:51 AM | | Larni has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 8 of 305 (399182)
05-04-2007 10:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by jar
05-04-2007 10:34 AM
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Re: On why own guns.
quote:
Most gun owners also take guns very seriously. Even more than the non-shooter, we are aware of just how dangerous guns are. Because of that, gun owners seem to be far more aware and careful than the general driving public.
So, are those your personal opinions, or statements of fact that you can back up if asked?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by jar, posted 05-04-2007 10:34 AM | | jar has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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see Larni?
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That's why we need more of the "good guys" carrying guns. When you pass laws regulating guns, all you do is affect the "good guys", as the "bad guys" aren't obeying the laws anyways.
That's some of the "wild west" mythos I talked about coming out.
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 52 of 305 (399307)
05-04-2007 10:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 14 by jar
05-04-2007 12:42 PM
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Re: On why own guns.
So, do you also wear a bullet proof vest? If you really wanted to be protected from injury, wouldn't that work better than a gun? I mean, if you have a gun, and somebody else has a gun, and both of you shoot, you can both be shot. Your gun didn't protect you at all in that case.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by jar, posted 05-04-2007 12:42 PM | | jar has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 54 of 305 (399309)
05-04-2007 10:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by jar
05-04-2007 2:56 PM
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Re: On 'accidental discharge'
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ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use. Know your target and what is beyond. Know how to use the gun safely. Be sure the gun is safe to operate. Use only the correct ammunition for your gun. Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.
Would you support legal reprocussions for gun owners who do not follow these rules? Those rules are all well and good, but we KNOW that thousands of times a year, gun owners don't follow these rules.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by jar, posted 05-04-2007 2:56 PM | | jar has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: On why own guns.
quote:
I actually found a better source so that should be 36 school shootings since Columbine
I think you are too quick to discount the influence on our collective consciousness that the sharp rise in the reporting of violent crime has. People can be made to be afraid very easily these days. Remember a few years back when people were afraid to go into the water on the beaches because the media widely reported a couple of shark attacks? There were more ACTUAL shark attacks the previous year, but they weren't reported, so there was no fear among the public. Fear makes people change their behavior, and changes how they think about the world.
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 57 of 305 (399313)
05-04-2007 10:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 41 by Jon
05-04-2007 6:13 PM
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Re: On why own guns.
Jon, are you planning on correcting your strawmen that both I and Nuggin have listed? That's what this thread is about.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by Jon, posted 05-04-2007 6:13 PM | | Jon has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 58 of 305 (399315)
05-04-2007 10:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 44 by jar
05-04-2007 6:42 PM
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Re: On concealed carry.
quote:
Because the law requires us to hide our guns away, the general publics view of gun owners is based on the image Hollywood and the news create. Unfortunately those images are far too often negative.
My image of gun owners as a group is based upon public health statistics and the positions of their largest lobbyist, the NRA.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by jar, posted 05-04-2007 6:42 PM | | jar has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: On why own guns.
quote:
Please note that my motorcycle is kept at my house in Colorado which is in Jefferson County.
Wait, isn't Jefferson county where Columbine High School is?
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by kuresu, posted 05-05-2007 1:09 AM | | nator has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: On why own guns.
Hey, petro, I've asked jar several questions about guns and gun control in this thread and he seems to be uninterested or unable to address them. Since you seem to be in agreement with him on this issue, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind having a stab at them? You can see them here and here. And also this post of Nuggin's.
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Jefferson County, CO
Petro, you mentioned how safe your motorcycle is because it is in a place with lots of private gun ownership, Jefferson County in Colorado. Jefferson County, CO (where it is very easy to get guns) is the county that Littleton, CO is in. Littleton, CO is the town where Columbine High School is, where (up until last month) the deadliest-ever school shooting occurred. It's great that your mororcycle was safe from harm and all, but it seems that the kids at that school weren't quite as fortunate as your motorcycle, were they? This is despite the fact that there were so many guns and gun owners in that town, right? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: A hot topic, eh?
quote:
Would it be crazy to assume that statistically cars are about a 1000:1 more dangerous than guns?
Yes, it would be crazy to assume that. I cited this researcher very early on in the last thread, but I'll repost it here.
source Gun deaths fall into three categories: homicides, suicides, and accidental killings. In 2001, about 30,000 people died from gunfire in the United States. Set this against the 43,000 annual deaths from motor-vehicle accidents to recognize what startling carnage comes out of a barrel. The comparison is especially telling because cars "are a way of life," as Hemenway explains. "People use cars all day, every day”and 'motor vehicles' include trucks. How many of us use guns?" quote:
Look at television, the movies, music videos, video games, etc, that are painting pictures for these young one's that they can empower themselves through the threat of violence. And as we often see in the gang culture-- live by the sword, die by the sword.
There has been a "gang culture" for a long time, even back in the 50's and earlier. Ever heard of West Side Story? They had knives instead of guns, of course, so only one kid died at the end. But anyway, crime is trending down across the board, with a marked drop during the Clinton administration, most likely due to economic reasons. The homicide rate is currently almost the same as in 1960.
United States Crime Index Rates Per 100,000 Inhabitants Edited by nator, : No reason given. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-06-2007 2:25 AM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 127 of 305 (399594)
05-06-2007 9:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 91 by Modulous
05-06-2007 1:31 PM
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Re: A hot topic, eh?
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If that is ironic then it must be ironic that the loudest proponents of guns always blame other inanimate objects for the high firearm related death rate in the US. Rock n roll, Hip Hop, Leisure suit Larry, Doom, Grand Theft Auto, Black Sabbath....you name it - they have been vociferously attacked by the loudest of the gun proponents. God forbid that anyone should question the prevalence of easily accessible lethal weapons.
TV doesn't shoot people. People with guns shoot people.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by Modulous, posted 05-06-2007 1:31 PM | | Modulous has not replied |
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