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Author Topic:   "Evidence and Faith"
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 136 of 303 (400135)
05-10-2007 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Percy
05-10-2007 12:19 PM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
If something is objective it means everyone experiences it the same way.
We all experience subjectiveness the same way, subjectively
In other words, you can't draw a line. The same scientific techniques that show Dr. Emoto, the water-prayer guy, a fraud will show your prayers a fraud, too. And you can't with any fairness claim that his claims about prayer should be subjected to scientific scrutiny while yours should not. I think you're stuck.
I think not.
Someone mentioned it was stated on his web-site, the effectiveness of prayer depends on the individual.
We are also taught in church, that sometimes when we ask for things, the answer is no.
So there is no difference between the two. IT is left up to the believer, if he wants to believe it.
If my church wants to present things this way, then it is fine.
But when they start showing pictures of orbs, and claiming they are spirits, or come out with statements "proving God exists" That is where the line is drawn.
The problem lies in explaining this to them.
AbE: I wish I could find this old comic I'm thinking of, it's priceless. I think it was by Gary Larson, but I could be wrong. Two adults are watching a televangelist who is saying, "God wants you to send me money." The caption says, "Sounds good to me, Orville, let's send him little Jimmy's college fund."
Or just think of Opus, and him ordering 25 ronco blenders, everytime a commercial ran on TV.
{ABE}
I just want to add, that it is possible that not all people selling something, are frauds. It is possible in their minds, they believe what they are doing, and the more they stir it up, the more of a chance of something actually happening.
I say this, because I know many people who believe in many things we could call "kooky" but these people are not kooky by any standard.
They want to see miracles, just as much as the next guy.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Percy, posted 05-10-2007 12:19 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Percy, posted 05-10-2007 8:40 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 137 of 303 (400136)
05-10-2007 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Equinox
05-10-2007 12:58 PM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Equinox, posted 05-10-2007 12:58 PM Equinox has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 138 of 303 (400139)
05-10-2007 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
05-10-2007 1:06 PM


Re: A word of Encouragement.
After the Resurrection Jesus continues to try to help Peter Really Get It but we are left with the feeling that even at the end, Peter still doesn't really understand.
Yes, all the apostles were not getting it, every corner they turned with Jesus, and Jesus had to keep reminding them.
Yet, I find it amazing that for a bunch of guys that would "lose it" every corner they turned, after Jesus died, and the day of Pentacost came, they stayed "with it" to their deaths.
First you say:
"Loving GOD is not praise, not worship, not fellowship, not hymns, not even prayer."
Then all the rest, which is fine and beatiful, but all those acts, are forms of worship to me.
I desire to worship the Lord in everything I do. I am at constant battle with it, in my mind, and I am far from perfect, but I get a true sense that we were created to worship, and nothing could fill my soul more than helping people, or singing a song to the Lord in church. I feel filled with the spirit everytime I do.
I could also be filled with the spirit, sitting on a mountain side looking at sheep as well, and talking in here, to you even.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 05-10-2007 1:06 PM jar has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 139 of 303 (400163)
05-10-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by riVeRraT
05-10-2007 4:33 PM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
riVeRraT writes:
If something is objective it means everyone experiences it the same way.
We all experience subjectiveness the same way, subjectively
You're missing the point again and not making any sense either, so let me try again.
I don't think you really meant to say that we "experience subjectiveness", but rather that all personal experiences are subjective, and you are correct. What you've left out of your formulation is where objectivity comes from.
We define objectivity, which is the way we believe the world really is, as subjective perceptions that are in agreement across many individuals. It is a keystone of science that is achieved through replicability of experiments and observations. Relativity has been verified by experiment after experiment performed by many researchers across decades of work, so we believe relativity is an objective reality of our world.
Cold fusion, on the other hand, of the type claimed by Fleishman and Pons where much more energy is generated than consumed, was observed only by them, was found not to be replicable by anyone in any lab anywhere, and so is deemed not part of objective reality. If Fleishman and Pons want to claim that they believe what they saw and stand by their observations then that is their privilege, but to the rest of the scientific community the failure to confirm their results means that it's just their subjective impressions and that they were very likely wrong.
But when they start showing pictures of orbs, and claiming they are spirits, or come out with statements "proving God exists" That is where the line is drawn.
You're still adrift in the same confusion. By what standards are you going to call orbs and spirits into question? If it is by the standards of science then you have to realize that those same standards call many of your own beliefs into question. You cannot reasonably require that other peoples beliefs be subjected to scientific scrutiny but not your own.
Or just think of Opus, and him ordering 25 ronco blenders, everytime a commercial ran on TV.
I thought it was turnip twaddlers.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by riVeRraT, posted 05-10-2007 4:33 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2007 7:22 AM Percy has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 140 of 303 (400209)
05-11-2007 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Percy
05-10-2007 8:40 PM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
You're still adrift in the same confusion. By what standards are you going to call orbs and spirits into question? If it is by the standards of science then you have to realize that those same standards call many of your own beliefs into question. You cannot reasonably require that other peoples beliefs be subjected to scientific scrutiny but not your own.
By both a biblical standard, and a scientific one.
While science will make such and such claim about prayer, it is mostly inconclusive, and still left up to the believer. In other words it is still subjective. Science doesn't prove that prayer does not work, or that it works.
Even Dr.Emoto hasn't been proven wrong yet. But that's because he won't reply to the questions, or subject his work to a double blind test.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Percy, posted 05-10-2007 8:40 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Percy, posted 05-11-2007 7:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 141 of 303 (400211)
05-11-2007 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by riVeRraT
05-11-2007 7:22 AM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
riVeRraT writes:
You're still adrift in the same confusion. By what standards are you going to call orbs and spirits into question? If it is by the standards of science then you have to realize that those same standards call many of your own beliefs into question. You cannot reasonably require that other peoples beliefs be subjected to scientific scrutiny but not your own.
By both a biblical standard, and a scientific one.
You're not thinking this through. If you measure something like prayer against both standards, and it passes the Biblical standard but does not pass scientific muster, then what?
While science will make such and such claim about prayer, it is mostly inconclusive...
No, it isn't. Most prayer studies indicate (*conclusively*, which means with significant correlation factors) that there is no relationship between prayer and outcome.
And if you really believe the scientific prayer studies are inconclusive, how could you hope that scientific examination of Emoto's claims would be helpful to you?
You're in reactive mode. You really want to start thinking through the implications of your position. If I were your pastor and you presented me the confused and incomplete thinking you've got so far, I'd probably respond, "Yes, yes, I'll think on it," and hope you'd go away. You need to give your pastor some clear thinking to go upon, because he can't just follow your advice if he doesn't understand the underlying rationale, which he won't because you haven't got one yet. You say he's influential, but he can't be influential if he can't articulate a rationale for his position.
Even Dr.Emoto hasn't been proven wrong yet. But that's because he won't reply to the questions, or subject his work to a double blind test.
You've again got things exactly backwards. You shouldn't be thinking that Emoto hasn't been proven wrong yet. You should be thinking that Emoto hasn't been proven right yet. Claims are not right until proven wrong. In science it is the exact opposite. Claims are not accepted by the scientific community until sufficiently persuasive evidence is presented.
And if you think Emoto's claims deserve inspection by scientists, then you've just got to start living in the real world. This will likely never happen because the sheer number of flim-flam claims far exceeds the scientific community's capacity to examine them. There is a small segment of the scientific community that does devote time to examining such claims, but they can only handle a tiny portion of them.
Answer a simple question: How are you going to set up a valid set of scientific criteria that yields the results you think are correct, namely that Emoto's prayer claims are bunk and your own prayer claims are accurate? Think it through and you'll find that this just isn't possible.
That's why I suggested that what you really want for your church is to teach parishioners how to detect swindles and quackery.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by riVeRraT, posted 05-11-2007 7:22 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2007 12:52 PM Percy has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 142 of 303 (400273)
05-11-2007 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by riVeRraT
05-10-2007 10:40 AM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
riVeRrat
What would the lack of reproducibilty indicate to you? Regardless , by performing the experiment yourself you can absolutely verify the validity of the claim itself.
AN excerpt from Richard Feynman may be of service to help you check things out.
"In general we look for a new law by the following process.
First we guess it. Then we compute the consequences of the guess to see what would be implied if this law that we guessed is right.
Then we compare the result of the computation to nature, with experiment or experience, compare it directly with observation, to see if it works.
If it disagrees with experiment it is wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science.
It does not make any difference how beautiful your guess is. It does not make any difference how smart you are, who made the guess, or what his name is - if it disagrees with experiment it is wrong. That is all there is to it.
It is true that one has to check a little to make sure that it is wrong, because whoever did the experiment may have reported incorrectly, or there may have been some feature in the experiment that was not noticed, some dirt or something; or the man who computed the consequences, even though it may have been the one who made the guesses, could have made some mistakes in the analysis. These are obvious remarks, so when I say if it disagrees with experiment it is wrong, I mean after the experiment has been checked, the calculations have been checked, and the thing has been rubbed back and forth a few times to make sure that the consequences are logical consequences from the guess, and that in fact it disagrees with a very carefully checked experiment.
This [analysis] will give you a somewhat wrong impression of science. It suggests that we keep on guessing possibilities and comparing them with experiment, and this is to put experiment into a rather weak position. In fact experimenters have a certain individual character. They like to do experiments even if nobody has guessed yet, and they very often do their experiments in a region in which people know the theorist has not made any guesses. .
You can see, of course, that with this method we can attempt to disprove any definite theory. If we have a definite theory, a real guess, from which we can conveniently compute consequences which can be compared with experiment, then in principle we can get rid of any theory. There is always the possibility of proving any definite theory wrong; but notice that we can never prove it right. Suppose that you invent a good guess, calculate the consequences, and discover every time that the consequences you have calculated agree with experiment. The theory is then right? No, it is simply not proved wrong. .
One of the ways of stopping science would be only to do experiments in the region where you know the law. But experimenters search most diligently, and with the greatest effort, in exactly those places where it seems most likely that we can prove our theories wrong. .
Another thing I must point out is that you cannot prove a vague theory wrong.
If the guess that you make is poorly expressed and rather vague, and the method that you use for figuring out the consequences is a little vague - you are not sure, and you say, ”I think everything’s right because it’s all due to so and so, and such and such[,] do this and that more or less, and I can sort of explain how this works . ’, then you see that this theory is good, because it cannot be proved wrong! Also if the process of computing the consequences is indefinite, then with a little skill any experimental results can be made to look like the expected consequences. . . "
{emphasis mine}

" Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!!What a ride!"
-----------------------------------------
What delightful hosts they are-Love and Laughter!
Lingeringly I turn away at this late hour,yet glad
They have not withheld from me their high hospitality.
So at the door I pause to press their hands once more
And say,"So fine a time!Thank you both...and goodbye.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by riVeRraT, posted 05-10-2007 10:40 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-11-2007 11:31 PM sidelined has replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3976
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 143 of 303 (400298)
05-11-2007 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by sidelined
05-11-2007 9:10 PM


Reference please
That quotation should have a source reference.
Not intending to pick on you, just using you as an example (or something like that).
In general, if you pull some information out of a website, book, journal, etc., there should be a source reference. Such is commonly lacking here at
Adminnemooseus

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There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.
Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by sidelined, posted 05-11-2007 9:10 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 144 of 303 (400299)
05-11-2007 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Adminnemooseus
05-11-2007 11:31 PM


Re: Reference please
Adminnemooseus
That quotation should have a source reference.
My apologies Moose. You are quite correct.
The source is from the book "The Character of Physical Law" By Richard Feynman.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-11-2007 11:31 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 145 of 303 (400518)
05-14-2007 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Percy
05-11-2007 7:51 AM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
You're not thinking this through. If you measure something like prayer against both standards, and it passes the Biblical standard but does not pass scientific muster, then what?
I don't see how, as in both cases, it is left up to the believer.
Can you site some of the studies you are refering too?
Here is my problem with scientific stury on prayer.
1. highly subjective
2. It is left up to the individual, instead of God.
I just don't think that it can be measured in a study, unless you could actually see into the hearts of those people praying, and then those that are being prayed for.
Remember, when the woman who reached out and touched Jesus's rope, and was healed, Jesus said, "it was your faith that healed you".
So over all, I would not say that science has a definitive answer on whether prayer works or not, and whether God exists or not.
Gems/orbs, and Dr. Emoto are very much different stories, as they deal with objective, not the highly subjective.
And if you really believe the scientific prayer studies are inconclusive, how could you hope that scientific examination of Emoto's claims would be helpful to you?
Because an subjective study, is much different than an objective experiement.
If proving Emoto's claim comes down to subjectiveness, or the person doing the prayer, then we will never know for sure I guess.
You're in reactive mode. You really want to start thinking through the implications of your position.
No, I am here, thinking it out, and talking with you.
You've again got things exactly backwards. You shouldn't be thinking that Emoto hasn't been proven wrong yet. You should be thinking that Emoto hasn't been proven right yet. Claims are not right until proven wrong.
Ok, that makes sense to me.
But I never thought that he was right until proven wrong.
I am under the impression, that nothing can ever be proven.
That's why I suggested that what you really want for your church is to teach parishioners how to detect swindles and quackery.
This is a good point also.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Percy, posted 05-11-2007 7:51 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Percy, posted 05-14-2007 5:35 PM riVeRraT has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 146 of 303 (400537)
05-14-2007 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by riVeRraT
05-14-2007 12:52 PM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
riVeRraT writes:
Can you site some of the studies you are refering too?
Sure, and if that turns out to be important to the discussion we can get into that, but before that even makes sense we have to get past this:
I just don't think that it can be measured in a study, unless you could actually see into the hearts of those people praying, and then those that are being prayed for.
If you're correct that prayer can't be studied scientifically, then how are you going to scientifically assess Mr. Water-prayer guy? Without objective assessments, his claims about prayer are as valid as your own, and your pastor would have no basis upon which to exclude mention of Mr. Water-prayer guy's work from his ministering to his flock.
These unanswered questions are one reason why I keep saying you haven't thought this through. You started with this simple question in Message 1:
But in all the years so far that creation science has been around, has there every been any solid (objective) evidence that the world was created?
The answer is no, there is no scientifically valid evidence that the events of a literal interpretation of Genesis ever actually happened. There aren't even hints of such things.
Later you raised Mr. Water-prayer guy as an example of the kind of thing you'd like your pastor to avoid. Presumably the reason for avoiding mention of Mr. Water-prayer guy is the absence of "solid (objective) evidence" supporting his claims. But as I keep pointing out, the kind of prayer you do believe in has the exact same lack of "solid (objective) evidence", so by what rationale are you going to exclude Mr. Water-prayer guys claims while allowing your own?
Gems/orbs, and Dr. Emoto are very much different stories, as they deal with objective, not the highly subjective.
No, they do not deal with the objective. His claims are as subjective as your own. With no supporting evidence he claims prayer influences crystal formation , and also with no supporting evidence you claim prayer helps people. Both claims completely lack objective assessments and are not in any way objective or scientific.
Ok, that makes sense to me.
But I never thought that he was right until proven wrong.
Then why in Message 140 did you say, "Even Dr. Emoto hasn't been proven wrong yet?" Sure sounds like you were hoping for someone to prove him wrong. Contradicting yourself like this is another reason why I don't believe you're thinking this through. You're like someone playing chess who doesn't think beyond his next move.
I am under the impression, that nothing can ever be proven.
Yes, that's true. But in order to save lots and lots of typing, when speaking scientifically in an informal context "proven" is used as a synonym for something like, "supported with evidence to the point where most reasonable people would accept it as probably true."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2007 12:52 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Nighttrain, posted 05-14-2007 7:56 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 148 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2007 9:21 PM Percy has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4023 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 147 of 303 (400551)
05-14-2007 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Percy
05-14-2007 5:35 PM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
Ain`t it a wonder that different denominations, hell, different religions, don`t push for members with statistical prayer success:
Roman Catholic:Come with us, our prayer success rate just topped 57%
Seventh Day Adventist: Don`t listen to the RC`s, we are verging on 61.5% with cash advances near 80%
Islam: Our prayers are topping 92%. And we throw in a free burka!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Percy, posted 05-14-2007 5:35 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2007 9:23 PM Nighttrain has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 148 of 303 (400557)
05-14-2007 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Percy
05-14-2007 5:35 PM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
If you're correct that prayer can't be studied scientifically, then how are you going to scientifically assess Mr. Water-prayer guy? Without objective assessments, his claims about prayer are as valid as your own, and your pastor would have no basis upon which to exclude mention of Mr. Water-prayer guy's work from his ministering to his flock.
Well first of all, if it can't be scientifically assessed, then my point is made.
This guy should not be claiming science, if it isn't. He is just doing religion, not science.
My Pastor does not claim science when he preaches the gospel, and neither did Jesus.
No, they do not deal with the objective.
Well gems and orbs do.
And you know what, I think Emotos too, and here is the reason why. I thin k we could easily do the kinds of experiments he does, and have them be "double blind" and controlled experiments, especially when it comes to music.
If he claims that prayer is measured by the person doing it, then we cannot effectively measure that. I will have to go back and read, because that is not the way he comes across. He comes across like all prayer works period.
Then why in Message 140 did you say, "Even Dr. Emoto hasn't been proven wrong yet?" Sure sounds like you were hoping for someone to prove him wrong.
Well I never accepted what he was saying either. But by the same token, I did not deny it. I simply just did not know if this guy was for real or not, it was to me, highly questionable, just Christianity was to me. ( I still continue to question though)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Percy, posted 05-14-2007 5:35 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Percy, posted 05-15-2007 9:02 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 155 by Equinox, posted 05-15-2007 1:08 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 149 of 303 (400558)
05-14-2007 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Nighttrain
05-14-2007 7:56 PM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
Ain`t it a wonder that different denominations, hell, different religions, don`t push for members with statistical prayer success:
Well that is exactly the kind of thinking I do not want to see happen in the church. I feel like it is heading down a road of false prophets, and false religion. We lose focus on what is important if that happens.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Nighttrain, posted 05-14-2007 7:56 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Nighttrain, posted 05-14-2007 10:56 PM riVeRraT has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4023 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 150 of 303 (400565)
05-14-2007 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by riVeRraT
05-14-2007 9:23 PM


Re: Ho Ho Hoax?
We lose focus on what is important if that happens.
Wouldn`t you agree, RR, that the denomination with the highest success rate would be the true church, having a real pipeline to God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by riVeRraT, posted 05-14-2007 9:23 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by riVeRraT, posted 05-15-2007 7:53 AM Nighttrain has not replied

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