"Evidence and Faith"

Yes, Romans 8. (I think) You can prove this, or is this just an opinion? I never said we need anything. It just happens, when God chooses it to happen.And there is nothing "magical" about knowing the truth. I don't, nor should anyone else have that attitude. Religion hinders more than it helps, I agree. What if the person serving the soup, was only doing it so they could worm their way into the workings of the soup kitchen, because he wanted to steal from that place?Another scenerio, you don't see a difference in someone helping others so they can get into heaven, and someone helping others from the goodness of their own heart?
Doesn't one seem more geniune than the other? You keep equivocating faith with doing nothing.I have already expressed that having faith, and being in Christ, is much more than "just" believing. If you live by the Spirit of God, and Jesus, your actions will show it. Again, back to Romans 8.

Right claiming to believe in Him, and believing in Him are two different things.Listen, we are basically saying the same thing, and we both put a great importanced on the visible side of our actions, but the only thing is, that you are saying that faith doesn't matter.I want to know where you can say that as a objective thing, instead of a subjective one.This is an evidence AND faith thread, so we can talk about faith, we both agree that our actions have everything to do with it, and so does the bible. Yes, and no. I was only talking about the initial start-up. Well I am talking about what is relevant to us, as individuals, not what we think of others. We are not talking about soup at that point anymore.
We are discussing intent. People kill people unintentionally, and get away with it.

If you love me. How can you pick and choose what is right from the bible like that?
Espicially the red letters?Read Acts two, and then you can see just what the power of the Holy Spirit can do to people, and how many recieved help through those actions, driven by the Holy Spirit. I am here, and it is out there.
Would you like me to curcify myself or something?

Religion and God are two different things.Religion has power to do nothing, but express the morality of the people doing it.God has the power to change lives.{ABE} (added by edit)
Welcome to the forum, in case I haven't said that already to you Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

Subjective evidence, is still evidence. No it's not, and all we can do is agree to disagree on that one. This is why when I talk to you, I do not think you have experienced the same thing as me, and that is fine. Oh I getr it alright, but you are going to have to accept that maybe you are the one who doesn't get it. Yes, we are fine on that one, we can stop mentioning that now. I have been saying that since day one of me being here. Oh, so now you are God, and can determine if God wants people to love Him or not? If God truely does change lives, and I believe He does, then bringing people to Jesus does count, so long as their actions that follow are commendable. If Peter didn't love Jesus, then he might not have done as many a good thing as he did. His life wouldn't have been changed.
The motivation counts, and the reasons count.jar, do you even believe in Jesus?
Where do you come off quoting bible verses?I just went to the bathroom, and while I was sitting doing my business, I prayted and asked God to speak to me through the bible, I opened it to John 17:24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."It's that love, the love of Jesus, and God, and the Holy Spirit, that enables people.If you believe in God, and everything is from Him, you would understand this, no problem.It is when people are not following that love, when the trouble starts, whether you believe in God or not.

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Exposing the lies, one truth at a time!

You mean if there is a God, then HE wouldn't know? Then you are missing my whole point.
Not everyone has a fair chance of knowing good from bad in this life ringo.
But I believe God can change that for people.I do not completely agree with nemisis. Good and evil are not absolutes, they are relative, as I have been saying.The fact that evil exists, has always made me think there was a God. So intent does count.

You are dead wrong ringo. Especially if we are using the bible as a reference for this.First off, let me clear the air once and for all.Your intentions do not count towards the person recieving help, I think I have said that many times already.I have always said that your actions do count, and you will be judged by your actions.It is your faith, Jesus says, that gets you into heaven. It is your intentions that you will be judged by, as well as your actions.This is between you and God, not the person recieving the soup. You are blending issues, I think.

quote:

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Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

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Mark 16:17
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

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Has been done through God.I also want to address onw specific quote of yours: Yes you do. It is the whole reason why Jesus came, and died for us.
The vail to the temple was torn, and the temple is us now. God dwells within us, and if we seek Him, and the use the Holy Spirit as a guide, we know exactly what is good for us, and what God will decide for us.What we don't know, is what God will decide for the next person, and that is where things like condemnation, and judging are wrong. Jesus came to save, not to judge.That is why I tell you, it is all relative.And I have never denied what Jesus said. I have been saying it all along. If I say it one more time, I will start to wonder about you. You are only picking some aspects of what He said, and ignoring all the rest.Edited by riVeRraT, : fixed some brackets

"More of your nonsense."and"yada yada"Are not viable responses to have a discussion with.I will just have to assume you really don't understand.jar:
Matthew 11
27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.I believe I know God (on the level I can know Him) and I believe there is no way for me to prove it to you. Even if my actions are all good, and great, or whatever. It is you who must seek Him.If I know God's love, and then share that love with others, then God may choose to use me to reach out to a person. But the glory is all for God, for I did not know of this love before meeting Him, it was not awakened in me yet.There is no way of proving it, you cannot prove God to others, you can only know for yourself. You want to know, how I know. That's like asking to prove God.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!I am not trying to change it. We are not talking about that. We are talking about people who do the actions, and clearly do not believe in God. *sigh* The name of the thread is called "evidence and faith."
the evidence I was addressing, has nothing to do with the evidence we are talking about now.We should have started another thread. It may seem like nonsense to those who have not experienced, as it did to me.Jesus said you must be born again to enter into heaven, what do you think that means?

No they aren't, they BS, and a mockery.
Very intelligent. Jesus said many things, that could be taken many ways.
Jesus said if you love me, you will do them.
What is it to do the acts, without loving God, and hating Him? I addressed that already. You are asking me to prove God with objective evidence, I already told you, as far as I know, you can't.Even miracles, and healings are subjective.I know it's God, because I believe it's God. Just like I think therefor I am. Means many things, to many people. But when it is done with the love of God, it means much more than that.What sense does it do to love your enemy?

Well I was You are changing your story around there, and equinox is right, you are running me around in circles.First you say we know people by there actions, now we are guessing?I am also not talking about judging whether someone believes in God or not. I am talking about someone who comes to you, and says, I do not believe in God.Like this guy: Christopher Hitchens
Amazon.com
He clearly professes to not believe in God, or as he would probably put it, God does not exist, so there is nothing to believe in.I saw him on TV, he only wants to do good, because it is a good idea.Now I don't know his reasons for not believing in God or not, so I cannot assume he is going to heaven or hell. But he will have to answer to God.Remember, I am not one of those that thinks just because you don't believe, means you are going to hell. There sure ain't. It is the furthest thing from spooky. For some people, there is a point in time, where it is magic. What you do with it from that moment on, is not magic, it is you. Yes, it is learning from your mistakes, and God points them out to you.
Many times people "learn" from their mistakes, and that causes them to do the wrong thing. Only God will keep you doing the right thing, i.e. loving your enemy, etc. John 6
65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

sorry ringo, but I see that as a condratiction of thoughts. Nothing, it doesn't concern me. I think it counts between you and God. I am only speaking of myself when I say that.
I know what happened to me, and God made Himself very apparent in my life. For me to deny Him now would be like denying this forum. The worst I could do is be angry at Him. Like I said, that is all relative, even if you know God. Could very well be.

Yes it matters, but not to me. Only my beliefs matter to me.
I do believe that it matters to God though, and the bible will agree.I do not think that faith alone, or acts alone is right. I think it is both.Right now the way the world is, I would put more importance on acts, since religion is not holding up their end of the whole deal, and I believe religion is to blame for the lack of faith from so many. So when people get to heaven, if God is just, I believe He will understand why people don't believe.God needs to be experienced for true belief to take place.God gave me a vision, a thought, and that is that atheism is here to set religion straight. I think it will play out over the next 10-30 years. Atheism will win out over religion, but when it is all said and done, people will be left empty inside, once religion is defeated, and a hunger for God will still exist. Then they will not know where to turn for comfort.
That was my vision. And God. I have said, and have been saying is, I do not know. If I was God, there are many people that I would let into heaven, just based on what I know about them. But I am not God.I believe the Holy Spirit enables me to see people the way God sees tham, I mentioned that before It is with that heart, that I feel God letting many people who claim not to believe in God, right into heaven. But that is just my opinion. I could probably back it up biblically, but it is not necessary. I know what you have been saying all along, and I wasn't disagreeing with you. I never denied what Jesus said, or what we are told He said.You just thought I was judging people based on their beliefs, and I never said any such thing.I can get along with anybody, but if they don't want to get along with me, then we can agree to disagree, and if they can't even do that, then they are on their own. I tried.

I don't think I agree with that.I think the speed limit is an average of all that, and then they take the lowest number, based on survivability of crashs.But even after all that, the drivers manual will tell you about driving beyond your means, and limits.And I think it is all based on what is morally correct.It would be immoral to intentionally speed, and then happen to kill someone fromt the speed. IMO.It would be immoral to set the speed limit at 100, when the majority of people do not possess the car, or the ability to do it safely, and even if they did, the guy next to them wouldn't, and could get in theri way.{ABE} I think you would get your message across (whatever that is)better without name calling.Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

I don't think so, it's pretty plain to see.
Isn't safety a moral issue, since it includes invasion on others? To me, at least, you would be more convincing, just my humble opinion jar.
You can give and take away life with the tonque. I am guilty of it too, so feel free to correct me.