Exodus, Merneptah stela and israelites

quote:

---

This is a science forum thread. The "dates" assertion you are making is an example of something you are expected to support.
Failing to do so will mean a longer suspension.

​

I don't recall that you have answered the post which lead to your last suspension. This one will be longer so you don't keep cluttering up threads.

---

Answering posts is not cluttering up. You asked a question before and then followed it next post with a restriction for off topic: I posted the details elsewhere. All such questions have been responded to.

quote:

---

Yes, it is valid that there are no currently proven references to an "Israel" previous to Merneptah.
The Merneptah stele tells us essentially that, somewhere in central Canaan, a people named Israel existed, considered enemies of Egypt in 1210 BC.

---

'Enemies' signifies a battle to be free, and marks the only time an enslaved peoples escaped what was then the world's super-power, and followed by a period of a nation, a scientific cencus, the completion of the Mosaic books, the establishment of Israel in Canaan and its capital Jerusalem, and the temple destroyed by Babylon. The right to freedom (Liberty) and Inalienable Human Rights were born here. There is no question here of fakery as flaunted in this thread: the descriptions of Israel's failures in wars with Babylon and Rome are recorded very plainly, as is the subjugation under Egypt. IOW, self-criticism is not lacking here.

quote:

---

As for the association of the Hyksos expulsion and the Exodus, there are pros and cons for this argument. The general feel of the Hebrew narrative indicates Ramasside slaves migrating from Egypt to Canaan, whereas the Hyksos expulsion is the destruction of a dynasty and expulsion of a population--which seems to date to Jacob or Joseph era events?

---

This inconsistancy is highlighted by Israel going on to be a nation in Canaan, unlike the Hyksos expulsion.Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

quote:

---

You have been asked to support these claims. Use detailed biblical references and show your calculations. You have one more post before a 3 day break.

---

I did supply claims. Your 'these' is not clear.

quote:

---

Which scholars and what is their evidence? So, no scroll of self admission constitutes proof in your eyes? Please promise never to serve on a jury would you?

---

Linked addresses (URLs)were included and can be further read; they show that Egypt did in fact inflate, and scholars are saying this. Its not about no scroll of self-admission, but no disputation evidence from any source against a documented description prevailing. A jury won't have problems with my posts: a diary is admissable evidence in a court, even in a murder trial.

quote:

---

And the bible has its share of incorrect statements and inflated storytelling and outright mistakes and lies so what is your point? That humans of ancient times were similar to those today? I would not expect that to be very enlightening would you?

---

Lets first establish the point debated. But yes, ancient humans in ancient egypt were the same as us today - we would act the same under their conditions. And just as galileo did, one came up with a manifesto of human rights, which was the fulcrum factor at that time. The Exodus is about Inalienable Human Rights in the big picture - unless you want to disregard the resultant laws enshrined in that document - even as it changed the world? It is mirrowed with the right of freedom of belief and Rome's greatest war, represented single-handedly by Israel 2000 years ago: no myth here either.

quote:

---

But you leave out what is important: the year!

​

A "date" as used in history is a Year more than anything else. So without a year you don't have a date.

​

You think a tradition based on some days after a full moon is something impressive. No one else does.

​

You can go over and explain why this is so meaningful if you want to try.

---

The year is not left out. Scolars date their findings in this region against dates in the OT, and these have been disputed and verified. An example relates to the dates given for King David - verified in the tel Dan discovery; there are numerous such examples. One cannot observe a month and week, annually, without a year; the Hebrew calendar is active today. The gregorian calendar is a contrived continuation of it. The 'year' datings of the establishment of Jerusalem as a Capital, for example, is determinable by calculating the thread of dates in the OT - this is performed, and this anniversary is not only celebrated annually, but is used and verified by archeologists today. The terms 'traditions' and 'full moons' is not applicable here: the OT calendar is regarded the most accurate and oldest in existence, and URL addressed links were supplied.

Amnosey.The 'day' the ten commandments were given is recorded as a saturday in the book of Exodus ('REMEMBER *THIS* DAY AS THE SABBATH'/EX). Care to explain how this is determinable - without a year, as you put it? Its a question of math!

quote:

---

IamJoseph, what makes you think “enemies” couldn’t mean anything else but a battle to be free?

---

Because freedom was the requirement with egypt, and this is also in the narratives.

quote:

---

Today there are respectable scientists who see Jerusalem as the capital of Judah then, not Israel. There are good reasons to believe that region was split up in a north and south part. The south being Judah where Jerusalem is located. After Israel was destroyed the people fled to the south. I know this but I’m not your best scientist and recommend reading “the bible unearthed” for more details.

---

No need to read about it, this is known history. There were two states in the nation of israel; the southern state, Judea, contained Jerusalem.

quote:

---

I thought Canaan was a province of Egypt, hence i don't see how you can talk about a battle to be free.

---

No, cannan was at some points under egypt's control, but not part of egypt. The Israelite rights transcend Egypt, being born and incepted in canaan.

quote:

---

!! i don't know how to use a quote function so my apologies for this, any pointers are appreciated!!

---

It does not see to work for me too.

quote:

---

You "worked it out" through the quote you provided. You didn't need to know the year - or do any math. Ergo your challenge answers itself.

---

True, I got this info by reading the texts, and the commentary which backs up the relevent maths. It is not doubtable, being a celebrated festival for 1000s of years. The christians call this the last supper, but unlike the OT calendar accuracy, its observence date is a free floating one.Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Let us be clear. You claimed that it was impossible to work out that the day was a Saturday without knowing the year. However you did exactly that. And I strongly suggest that you produce these alleged calculations before you are suspended again for refusing to support your claims.

---

Nope - your understanding is incorrect. The year is not a problem; the first year begins with Adam, today 5766 years ago. This 5766 year calendar is fully aligned with today's years, with some glitches needing adjustments, owing to Pope Gregory's refusal to adopt the lunar and solar hebrew calendar, discarding the lunar section, which does not give accurate days.When advised so by his bishops, that the new gergorian calendar, which begins 2000 years ago and operating only by the solar impacts, would cause 11 days extra, he responded: 'better to be wrong with he moon than be right with the jews - we will just omit 11 days!'. But there was never any confusion of the year in the hebrew calendar. So if we know a day falls on saturday, it can be confirmed by a calculus of the calendar.

I did answer brenekin.Which part?

quote:

---

i refuse to believe mythical tales which defend the right of a nation based solely on religion which undermines democratic laws by importing more members of that religion to dillute the vote of minorities to exist.

---

Here, democrasy must bow to the right of a nation to have a homeland. Democracy was introduced in the OT (mytical tales), and has conditions and limitations, while the concept of land is precedent, and prevades all species and life forms. Democracy is a component of 'laws', and 'YOU SHALL LIVE BY THIS LAW', not be destroyed by it. The minority is best protected by the law, which includes the rights of strangers and smaller groups ("Equal justice for the inhabitant as the stranger'). By itself, democracy negates the rights of a minority.

quote:

---

i assume you merely use the bible narratives to support that...

---

As opposed to what - we know of canaan via OT narratives? The other writings, very meagre bits of letters and relics, and without dates and specific historical data, serve as reflections of the OT narratives.

quote:

---

:

​

well throughout the priod of the New Kingdom (c1569-1076 BCE) egyptians were known to cross Canaan as far north as Syria. In the region scientists found campsites, forts, cities , cemetaries and granaries for the egyptian army. There was clearly an infrastructure to support the idea of a province, especially when they controlled it for so long.

---

Yes, egypt had a history with canaan, which peoples travelled to and fro: this is recorded in the OT, whereby Abraham and his wife visited Egypt well before Joseph was born. Egypt did not speak hebrew, which indicates this was a new/different language in this region; it was also not spoken in Mesopotamia. The hebrew language and monotheism was a suspicious thing in this spacetime, which conflicted with divine kings and the absence of laws. The latter can be a valid reason why the eight kingdoms of Canaan rejected Israel and barred her entry; it is akin to promoting democracy in a lawless area of dictators.

quote:

---

bullshit. the rights of all are protected providing a proper vote to all. nothing about being a minority ensures a given vote nor the exclusion from the system, unless your percentage is continually diluted and your rights are continually restricted by a government that wants nothing more than to remove you from the land where you were born.

---

Yes, a minority is subject to being sidelined via democratic voting. Other laws must be accompanied to result in the minority's protection.

quote:

---

at any rate. according to their own history, the people who became the jews migrated from iraq; sought shelter from a famine in a foreign land; left that land ransacking its treasure and causing a massacre of its troops by getting them lost and drowned through impressive millitary strategy; took over a huge area through attrition, pillaging, and genocide; and once they had built a nation, turned on their own people declaring that they worshiped wrongly, weren't jewish enough and then perpetrated further acts of horror and genocide on their own people. i'm unimpressed with their claims to the land. i've no issue with the country as it exists now, but i do hold great contempt for their government policies and the way they treat people, especially considering that they, of all peoples, should know better than to mistreat people based on the circumstances of their birth.

---

Nothing is correct here. Jews did not come from Iraq. Judaism was born and incepted in canaan. The egyptians were not ransacked - they used slaves without pay and without any rights. Liberty was borne when Israel prevailed. Egypt instigated the canaanites wrongly, and genocide was declared against the Israelites when they fleed Egypt. Your appraisal is not just wrong, but the reverse of the facts, thus you bypassed all the wrongs comitted by Egypt and Canaan. Jews have never stolen anyone's lands in all their 4000 year history, despite being the world's most dispersed: did Jews rob Tasmania, Pakistan or Poland?

quote:

---

The facts are that if anything like the Biblical Exodus happened there would be many external evidences as has been pointed out to you many times before.

​

A few examples:

​

At the time the Exodus supposedly happened, Egypt was but one of the super powers in the area. There were other super powers both to the North and South of Egypt, as well as the rising powers around the Mediterranean.

---

Egypt was not one of, but THE superpower, equivalent with Rome.

quote:

---

Had there been been a Pharaoh killed unexpectedly, these other powers would have taken notice and acted. In addition, there would be internal evidence as the new Pharaoh set about establishing his reign.

---

Pharoah was not killed, his army was; the OT says he lived after the battle with Moses. The oral law says Pharoah lived to a ripe age, but not as a Pharoah - he became a believer and went on to promote Judaism; so did his preist, who became Moses' father in law. The other nations did notice what occured, and Egypt was weakened greatly. The israelites had battles with many other nations before entering canaan. Babylon, then Persia emerged as the next superpower, and egypt never recovered her superpower status again.

quote:

---

Further, it would have been necessary to replace the men, horses, supplies, chariots, weapons and other materials lost. Such a major project would leave traces as the basic infrastructure and economy ramped up for the effort.

---

This did occur. Nor is there any doubt that Egypt was steeped in enslaving peoples from other nations, which system broke down, and an Israelite sovereign nation resulted in Canaan. Generally, aside from a few items not yet proven, the OT narratives are vindicated as a whole, with no blatant inconsistancies.

quote:

---

My objection is when folk pervert the Bible to turn it into something it is not.

---

EG?

quote:

---

Rome didn't even exist except perhaps as some small village at the time the supposed Exodus happened.

---

Brilliant observation, but my statement did not refer to time, but equivalence, both being the only superpower in their periods.

quote:

---

I suppose you actually have some support for any of that?

---

Read Exodus again: pharoah was not killed.

quote:

---

Sorry, the Biblical Exodus simply never happened as depicted in the Bible.
Do you have any evidence that any of the things mentioned in the Biblical Exodus myth actually happened?

---

Yes. But don't you?

quote:

---

Honestly, the OT is filled with blatant inconsistencies and the Exodus Myth is a classic example.

---

Inconsistancies negate a myth factor, and indicates a veracity amidst some factors being not bearing an alignment with other percieved factors. It is not a classic example of myth at all, and represents actual history. Myth is Zeus and Hercules. You did not evidence any inconsistancies: small variances of datings and minor contradictions do not indicate a myth factor, but in fact affirm its antithesis. Lets not forget that king david was equally classified a myth by the greatest scholars for over a century, and many extensions were drawn from that premise; this was totally overturned with the Tel Dan find. David was a mere 250 years after the Exodus. I suspect your views are based on obsolete data.