Poor Satan, so misunderstood.

I am IMPRESSED with Jesus. I hope that I am not OBSESSED with Jesus. And why should I not be IMPRESSED with Jesus? He is IMPRESSIVE and He is a major part of the Bible.Now let's take a look at Asa, who you boast was perfect. I was mistakeen about a chapter or two. In Second Chronicles Asa is given about three chapters. Both in 1 Kings and in 2 Chronicles there are about six or so chapters which mention Asa. He was a good king.But Asa's perfection is relative. How do I know? Second Chronicles 14:1 - 16:14 cover the reign of Asa. And it begins with this very good recommendation: Asa, to his credit, sought to reform the people from idolatry. However there were a number of destestable things which he did not put out of the land until he heard a promise of divine victory from one of God's prophets: The point here is that as good as Asa was there was still room for him to grow even better. So his perfection is a relative matter. The Bible also says that Asa failed to take away the high places. And that aside from this deficiency, he was good: Asa cannot compare in ABSOLUTENESS to the will of God as Jesus Christ does. He was "perfect". But the Bible mentions the deficiency in his "perfection." Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Rrhain writes: I believe that Jesus of Nazareth knew more about the Torah than the Jews of that day, let alone you and I today. Now what did Jesus say about Genesis as it relates to Satan the Devil?Speaking to the opposing Jews in John chapter 8 He says: Nicodemus was an experienced and respected rabbi and respectfully called Jesus "Rabbi" (John 3:2)[/b] Nicodemus also confesssed that some of the priests realized that Jesus was a teacher who came from God (John 3:2)Notice this "Rabbi" and teacher from God taught:1.) Sinners have some kind of descended relationship with the Devil:"You are of your father the devil ..."2.) The Devil was a murderer from the beginning. This no doubt refers to the beginning of human history recorded in Genesis. Particularly this indicts the Devil Satan as the instigator of the murder of Abel at the hands of jealous Cain (Genesis 4:3-9)3.) The Devil does not stand in the truth. So naturally what he spoke in Genesis chapter 3 was a lie. He lied by mixing some truth with lie. Here we can conclude that the serpent in Genesis chapter 3 is the Devil who does not stand in the truth.4.) When the Devil (the serpent in Genesis 3) lies he is only drawing up from the abundance of his personal possessions. In other words the Devil is FULL of lies - " he speaks out of his own [possessions]"5.) The motivation of his lies is MURDER. And up to the time of Jesus speaking the Devil still had a desire to MURDER, this time the Son of God - "You want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning ..."6.) The serpent the Devil of Genesis chapter 3 is the father of lies. He originating untruth and lying. "For he is a liar and the father of it."There you have it. The serpent, taught this teacher from God, was a liar, a murder from the beginning of human history. In other words Satan did not pop into the human picture some time latter, ie. after the Babylonian exile. He was there "in the beginning", ie. in the Genesis history of man's creation.There is no truth in the Devil. He can only speak the lies which are his unique kind of possessions.And he is the Originator of the lie. He is the father of lies. The serpent, the Devil Satan, seen in Genesis is the father of lies.This teaching of Christ to the Jews leaves me with no doubt that the serpent was Satan the Devil. How, I do not know. But he was. And it is interesting that in John 8 we see no Jews deligently coming to the rescue of the serpent's reputation or refuting Jesus's teaching that he was the Devil.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I did open up a discussion on this forum where I invited people to discuss the Hebrew Bible. I put myself voluntarily under a regulation that I would not reference any New Testament Scriptures. I appeal to the New Testament not to Christianity or any other kind of "anity".Maybe, then I'd understand that the serpent possibly one of many in a class of slanderers aligned against God.Considering the foundational importance of created man getting off to a good start with God, I would assume that the evil work of derailing him would be carried out by the most pernicious of such beings. But an underling might be used too.Your second statement above is not really according to the rabbi's teachings whose website I went to. He did believe in the devil. He objected to the idea of him being a former rebellious archangel. You assume that. I don't.I told you before, the new covenant is prophesied to be enacted by God in the Old Testament. Therefore the New Testament - new covenant is relevant.You don't believe that the new testament is the new covenant. But the old covenant and the new covenant are both relevant. This passage is addressed to the whole world: But that is not Genesis you say perhaps?Now when we Gentiles from "all the ends of the earth" hear that speaking, we need to know WHO is this God speaking. So it behooves us to come to Genesis and learn about Him. And low and behold we find there that it doesn't start with Abraham, but with Adam, the forefather of the entire human race.It is not too nice for you to shew us away, saying, "Hey, this book is not written for your benefit. You're not Jewish."Jethro the fatherinlaw of Moses was a priest of Midian. He was a priest of the one God. Jethro was not Jewish. Balaam was not a particulary good prophet. But he was a genuine prophet of this God nonetheless.Enoch was not a Jew. He walked with God. Why can't we from the ends of the earth benefit from learning from him though we be not Jewish?Abel was not a Jew. He offered a pleasing worship to God. Why can't we of the ends of the earth learn from Abel the principles of worship to God?Noah wasn't a Jew. Why can't we benefit from learning about this one who found grace in the sight of God and was righteous?Do you object to Genesis being translated into the thousands of languages that it has been translated into? If you are Jewish, weren't you a little proud that this book was seen fit to read from when men circled the globe in outerspace? Such a momentous occasion for mankind, and they were reading to the world from Genesis. I'm kind of glad you weren't at Mission Control. You might have interrupted them and said "That's a Jewish Book written to Jews. Stop reading it to the world."Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. I'm interested. Maybe if it had read "In the beginning God created Israel, the Law, Jews, Jerusalem, and everything pertaining to the lives of Jews" then maybe I'd think there was nothing there for my benefit.I don't know how to put this to you, but this Old Testament is my book. It is my book like Rehab the harlot from Jericho became part of the congregation of Jehovah. It is my book like Ruth the Moabitess joined herself to God's people and their God. It is my book the way a "mixed multitude" came out of Egypt to be saved by Yahweh rather than suffer divine judgement.This revelation is also addressed to me. I hope one day you will make the New Testament your book too. Makes no difference. I'm all for better and better renderings in translation. In this case my point still stands whether it was "Nevertheless" or whether it was "Otherwise" or "Anyhow" or "Regardless" or "Just the same".Asa was good. But right here was a deficiency. That is the point with his "perfection". Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Maybe I can or can't. But right now maybe I WON'T!This Forum is called BIBLE STUDY, in case you didn't notice. If you want to go to the Moderators and suggest that they have a Room Called TORAH ONLY STUDY then go ahead. And maybe then I'll honor you desire to keep the New Testament out of the discussions.What DO you mean by Christian Dogma anyway?We believe that there is one God. Is that Christian Dogma? We believe that Israel is a chosen nation of God on this earth. Is that Christian Dogma? We believe that God gave the law of Moses to the Jews. Is that Christians Dogma?God is the Creator and the Old Testament is the infallible word of God. Is that also Christian Dogma? Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Isaiah and other OT prophets were sent by God to speak the words of God and Genesis is the word of God too. Is that Christian Dogma that you want me to keep silent about?So maybe I could leave the New Testament out of the discussion. But maybe because of your arrogance I won't.Right now I suggest you go over to Jews For Judaism where it is understood that a "Bible Study" does not mean the New Testament portion of the Bible. Or ask the Moderators to open up a room dedicated to "TORAH STUDY ONLY".Right now I am not willing to intertane your concept of leaving out the New Testament in a careful analysis of Genesis.I might be if the questioner had a little more respectful attitude in his request. I'm usually up for a challenge if the attitude of the examiner is proper. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Arach,Genesis says that the serpent was a beast of the field, not a sea monster from the water. Your etymology is interesting. But I think it has no bearing here.If you're saying that the Devil as a spiritual being pre-dated the garden incident, I agree with that. He had a long ancient pre-Adamic history. No I don't.You're musings on the historical development of the imagery is interesting. But I don't think it effects at all the revelation of the Holy Spirit delivered to us through the Apostle John that the one deceiving man in Genesis is the same one in opposition against God's people throughout history up until the end times as John writes in Revelation 12.It is the same evil being. As interesting as your supposed suggested cultural developments are, they have no bearing on this.The prinicples of spiritual warfare have remained the same from the creation of man somewhat briefly outlined as follows.1.) God will not unilaterally fight against the rebellious Satan alone.2.) God will have another creature agree with God to such fighting. If a creature Satan is in rebellion God deems it to His glory that another creature agree with God against the rebellious creature Satan. The three pointe trinagle is heavier on the side of God with man AGAINST Satan, rather than Satan with man AGAINST GOD.3.) Satan is aware of this and seeks to drive the other creature man apart from God and God apart from man.God is holy and man has become sinful.Satan accuses man before God, taunting God that He cannot partner with such a sinful being.Satan accuses God before man, injecting the deception into man that God does not love or care for man.4.) The accusation of man before God is terminated by the redemption of Christ for our sins. Christ's redeeming death for us shuts the mouth of Satan's accusations against man. Man is now positionally righteous in God's economy.5.) The growth of God's life within man giving him the power to overcome Satan's temptations. A remnant at least of overcomers are consstituted dispistionally righteous as well as positionally righteous.This stronger part of the totality of God's people on earth harmonize their will with God's and bring in the kingdom of God to the earth, crushing the Devil. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The teaching of Christ were not ideas out of the originality of a man, ANY man. Christ said that His teaching was not His but the Father's who sent Him: The teaching out of the mouth of Jesus is the teaching of God the Father Who sent Him.Jesus, coming with the teaching of His Father, said that His words would outlast the physical universe. So they are the eternal oracles of God: Jesus also said that until heaven and earth pass away the most insignificant aspect of the law of Moses would still stand. Speaking the words taught Him by His Father, Jesus put His words on the same level as the oracles of God in the Hebrew Bible. Therefore Jesus placed His speaking on the same eternal infallible ground as the Old Testament. This is why we Christians insist that we do not exclude the New Testament from our study of what does the Bible really mean.But Jesus did not just speak these great things. He acted in a manner which tended to authenticate His words. So we cannot just ignore Him. Jesus, speaking not the original opinions of a created man, but speaking the teaching of the Father Who sent Him said that He came to fulfill the law and not abolish it.He is the final propituatory sacrifice which renders all the bulls and goats and lambs and doves no longer necesary. With one sacrifice for sins He has perfected forever those who come forward to God through Him.And He imparts the divine life enabling man to lead the highest standard of righteousness on the earth by the law of life.But in the nre covenant it is not by the power of the fallen Adamic nature one lives righteously. But it is by faith in the organic union of Jesus Christ the Righteous One internally, within the believer, living a mingled life with the saved. Tnis teaching is of the God and Father of the Son of God. It is not the teaching out of some man's original creative thinking.Furthermore this teaching, after the ascension of Christ, was passed on to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not speak His own words but those words delivered to Him by the Father and the Son. What has been delivered to the Son originates with the Father. And what has been given to the Son is given by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. Finally, what the Apostles delivered to the world as the New Testament was not thier original ideas stemming out of their religious creativity. It was the oracles of the Father, transmitted through the Son, transmitted through the Holy Spirit, to the Apostles: There are many many other verses I could use to establish this. But the bottom line is that the New Testament has its source from God. That is the same God who delivered the tablets to Moses, written by the finger of God. The Son, and the Holy Spirit, and the Apostles who gave us the New Testament, were all directly under the authority of this one God.Jesus the Son, tells us that all authority has been placed into His hands in the universe. A crucified and resurrected Man is now on the throne of the universe commanding His people to preach the New Testament to all the world: The teaching of the New Testament are the oracles of God. They are the oracles of God in the Bible. They were delivered to us by "Emmanuel" which by interpretations means "God with us". Jesus the man was God with us. And in the end of the same Gospel He says that He is with us all the days until the consummation of the age. Every Christians will have to stand one day before Jesus Christ to give an account of his or her Christian life. It is true that a Christian can be also a rejector of the will of the Father.Just because one is saved eternally does not mean that he or she cannot be disciplined in the next age by Christ, before the age of eternity begins. The age of eternity begins after the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.In that time Messiah will fulfill His promises to ISrael as the capital of the earth. And during that time He will also reward or punish all the Christians who were saved during the years of the age of the grace of Christ. In the age of grace Christ Who came to fulfill the law of God was the atoning sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. He was the reality of all the types, symbols, shadows of the Levitical offers commanded by God in the Old Testament. This scheme of the perfect human substitute for the sins of the world was hidden in God. It was not made known to other generations. It was made known to the new covenant apostles and prophets in spirit. So we Christians must study the Old Testament with the light delivered to the new covenant apostles and prophets. Listen to this Old Testament passage carefully: We believe that this new covenant is the imparting of the law of life in the Spirit of the resurrected Jesus Christ into our hearts."the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)As the resurrected Savior and Lord, Jesus became the life giving Spirit to write Himself into our beings. He inscibed the law of divine life on our hearts qwho have been regenerated by the new birth. And by his death on the cross out sins and iniquities have been judged by God and He remembers them no more.Yes, I know that I am not of the house of Israel or of the house of Judah. Other passages teach me that this salvation will go out to the Gentiles.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Arach,You may have an impressive knowledge of mythology and literature. But the things I am teaching here are not derived from my study of the writings of Milton or Dante. So I am really not interested in Paradise Lost or even ancient mythologies.Pre-Adamic happenings I derive from the Bible.In this discussion I have already spoken to WHY I believe that cerain utterances in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are instances of "the prophetic past". The reasons I gave were biblical.I have never read Paradise Lost. Though I know a little about some ancient cosmologies, they are not my interest. Probably, in many ways THEY are influence by the truth of God's word RATHER than the other way around.That is in SOME instances.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Concerning spiritual warfare Arach retorts: Arach, sit back and take a deep breath and open your mind ... listen.These principles are derived from the EXPERIENCE of many of God's saints down through the centries. But not from experiences alone. Also they come from a careful examination of spiritual warfare as it occured throughout the Bible.We're not playing around with toys here Arach. This stuff is real. God is real. Christ is real. The enemy of Christ and of God's people is real.In fact the closer one gets to wanting to draw close to Jesus for salvation the more he or she will often notice how circumstances and people begin to kick up trouble of all kinds to keep one back.The night I called on the name of Jesus and set myself to be a disciple of Jesus, that very night an old "girlfriend" called out of nowhere to distract me and pull me back into my old life style.It was not of herself. This was activity in the spiritual realm belonging to spiritual warfare.Someimes even when a person sets their heart on reading the Bible each night all kinds of destractions will begin to happen. There is a cosmic battle over the hearts and minds of men and women. And there are some principles that we notice in conjunction with these battles.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I agree that man strayed from God's will. However, there was a line in the sand. That line was called the tree of the knowledge of good and eveil. Whatever Adam did on this side of that line was accepted by God. Once he crossed the line and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - SIN entered into man.Yes, it was not good even to think about eating or having a tendency to even want to. These were not counted by God as trangression. Once the line was crossed and man ate he was joined to Satan.There are some things about this I cannot explain. But his much I am pretty sure of. And I know where to find salvation. You tell me WHY God commmited the creation under Adam's dominion sayiong "Let them have dominion over ..."Why does the Creator need Adam to have dominion? Doesn't God have all the dominion.God wants a counterpart. He really wants a counterpart to harmonize with Him and express Him. I may not be able to explain WHY He wants this counterpart. But He just does.He created the universe in order to have this counterpart.Probably, in the ancient past Lucifer (Latin - Day Star) served as this counterpart. Now God is making an example out of this one who rebelled and established a kingdom contrary to God's kingdom. What Satan wanted to do to Job was far beyond simply prosecuting him. Most state prosecutors do not also get involved in torturing the witness.

We are dealing with a deep subject. I do not have all the answers. There are aspects of it that I do not understand.Dr. Donald Barnhouse suggested that the existence of TIME is in conjunction with the arising of more than one will in the universe. Barnhouse said with no other will but the will of God there is eternity. And when another being established a will contrary to the will of God, time, decay, degradation came about.The main contrary will will be crushed after a long dispute for the edification and education of the universe. Then there will return only one will to the creation - God's will. And the eternal age of Paradise will commence again.This was Barnhouse's way of thinking about it in "The Invisible War".When we hear the phrase "the will of God" we must think of all that is beautiful, all that is paradise, all that is peaceful and full of love and harmony.As long as something in us recoils when we think of "the will of God" to some extent we are still deceived human beings.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

We do not have God delivering to Adam 613 laws. We do not see God delivering the law of Moses to the created man. We see a much simplier picture.Adam is between two trees. One is the tree of life and the other is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We do not see the tree of the ten commandments or the tree of 613 commandments. We it is the tree life.The one command that Adam has to obey is to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In fact it is not even written that he is specifically commanded to eat of the tree of life. It is there with all the other trees "good for food."This may be hard for us to understand because Adam was in a state that we have never known. He was in a wonderful neutral state of innocency. In fact he was a "very good" yet neutral created being. Aside from God's blessing instructing him to guard the garden and replenish the earth with multiplication, we don't see God commanding him on 600 or more moral issues.When he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil sins and death entered into man. With him now fallen into the kingdom of Satan, creation underneath his dominion, somehow collapses with him into corruption.Once he crossed the line and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - SIN entered into man. You may have some ground to say that. And I can see some logical ground to believe that. However, where the Bible draws the line is where I limit my conception of the events. His guilt commenced from the eating of the forbidden tree.Whereas you may reject the Apostle Paul's teaching, we Christians cannot do without it and Paul writes:"Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned ... (Rom.5:12)

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For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous.

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And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has super-abounded ... (Rom. 5:19,20)[/qs]The specific act of disobedience which brought sin and death into the world is Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Before that any pontentiality of sin seems not the issue. And we need not stir up an issue where none exists.The Apostle Paul was used by this same God to "complete the word of God" God in Christ in the believers as the hope of glory was a mystery hidden in God from previous generations. The prophets did speak of the mystery. But the Apostle Paul was commissioned to complete the word of God. And in that completion he also writes that through one act of disobedience of Adam sin and death entered into the world.This is the revelation that I must submit to and be limited by. There is a logic to your suggestion that there was a potential for Adam to sin. But going beyond into speculation about this will cause some confusion and lose of the truth which we clearly have.By the way. You can see that the principle of one man's act influencing the standing of many others is reflective applied to "the second man" Christ. Through His act of obedience to His Father in the cross many are justified and constituted righteous. We have a clear parting of ways at this point. This is the initial cosmic depature of the human race from the paradise of God and from the eternal purpose of God.No underling was responsible for this. It was Satan who opposed the will of God. Any thought that it was just a naughty snake and Satan comes along latter to join the mischief I will not accept.This was a pivotal point in the history of the univese. Just like the betrayal of Jesus by Judas, it says that Satan entered into Judas to do the job right himself. So also in this pivotal junction it was the main enemy of God who came to derail God's eternal purpose. Just because he is not pinpointed as Satan in that story does not conceal him. You acknowledge that the 600 plus commandments of the law is not revealed there in Genesis. You should see the reasonableness of saying that everything we know about the Devil is not covered there either. Details are provided latter.The Bible is written that way. Genesis doesn't tell us about the ten commandments or the priesthood. God provides more details in subsequent books. In Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 He provides some poetic prophetic utterances which expose the ancient history of a main rebellious angelic creature. This one became Satan. Maybe so. In a vanacular sense you may have hit it.Of course from eternity to eternity God is triune and is the divine "Us" who said "Let Us make man ...". And we are told that God is love in the New Testament.He apparantly wants to catch up man into this eternal incorporation.
Yet God retains the essential Godhead of authority and Sourcedom (to coin a new word perhaps) of the relationship. [qs] look, i'm not disagreeing with you. but as the point stands, satan is merely the prosecution. and man currently falls very, very short of god. but... try going back and reading genesis in light of god wanting a companion, and see if you don't come to different conclusions abotu certain stories. did god really want blind obediend from abraham regarding isaac? or did he want to know if abraham had the ..." [/b]It is evident that in God''s providence He is using Satan. I do not object to the thought of God using the Devil like a mad dog on a leash. However, there is nothing friendly about the relationship.I mean I stop short of any suggestion that Satan is a cooperating attorney simply and obediently doing God's work as a counter arguer. That is as if Perry Mason and the district attorney are on pretty friendly terms.Satan is a murder. Exodus says that God will have war with Amelek continually because he is "a hand against the throne".Satan is the original "hand against the throne". His challenge to God's authority is not friendly. His murders are not friendly. He would have torn Job limb from limb in hatred.He sought to set his own throne above that of God. He would be like the Most High. Yes we do see God speaking rather cooly to this Advasary in the book of Job. That is only because God is still in control of the situation and cannot be defeated. It is not because God and Satan have an amiable relationship.God will cast him into the eternal fire when he has finished using him. Satan brings accusation against God that God plays favorites with Job. You see to Satan's way of thinking God who loves man, should be in total rejection of man. He cannot stand that God still loves this sinful creature. God would not give up this fallen man.Satan taunts God and accuses Him of unrighteousness because God still cares for man. Have you grasped how great God's love is and how wicked Satan's hatred is?On one hand Satan draws men to transgress against God. Then he turns around and accuses God of playing favorites with these sinners. And he also wispers to the sinners that they could never be of any use to God because they have sinned, sinned in reaction to Satan's temptations.And someone want us to feel sorry for this "misunderstood" enemy whose hand is "against the throne" of God? I like to be ambitious to minister life to people. It is wonderful to cooperate with God's eternal purpose to dispense divine life into man.The purpose of our spiritual knowledge and biblical knowledge should aways be to feed people with the Spirit of life and shed light of truth to them that they may be delivered from the power of Satan to the kingdom of the Son of God's love. You should notice this about Job - It is very firmly entrenched in the concept of man that if he does good God will bless, if he does bad God will punish. This was the repeated argument of Job's three "comforters".They could not believe that Job had not committed some secret sin. If Job was good God would bless him. If Job was evil God would bring misfortune.In other words their understanding of God was filled up with the knowledge of good and evil. The dealing that God has over Job goes deeper than God rewarding Job's goodness and punishing Job's evil. This is what is so terribly perplexing to Job.God had Job stripped of everything. Both his good (of which he had plenty) and his evil if they could find any, were stripped away from him. The answer for the question of why Job is suffering is really never given in the book of Job. God puts Job through this outragous trial only to spend a few chapters scolding him that he really doesn't know ANYTHING.However, I think the answer to why "good people" suffer under God's sovereignty is found in the book of Second Corinthians and perhaps some other New Testament epistles. There we see the apostles suffering such that they are drivien out of self reliance totally to trust the God who raises His Son from the dead.I am not sure of your popint above. But Job as well as some other portions of the Bible make it clear that everything is under God's providencial governing. It cannot happen unless He allows it. In one sense He is doing all these things with and to mankind out of His sovereign providence.We usually do not like that idea. The absolute authority of God is something that we usually complain about. We want God to care for us and help us. We do not want Him to be the to total and absolute authority in the universe ruling from His infallible throne.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

There is a word in the Bible that transcends the Jewish word. That is the word of God. And what you call "Christian Dogma" I call the revelation of God to the world.The Hebrew Bible has to be the word of God. No people would ever write such an unflattering history about themselves and their relationship with their "national god."The Bible is too candid, too frank, and too honest to be assumed as a national book. A Jewish book written to Jews, you say. On one hand a agree that Moses and the prophets were Jews. No question about that. But look at some of the things they wrote.The murder and adultery of their national hero king David. Their forefather Abraham cowardly tryng to pass off his wife as his sister to save his neck. Isaac his son doing the same thing. Have you read Deut. chapter 28? You might make a case that it appears the Hebrew Bible was written by some enemies of the Jews.My point is that this Hebrew Bible is the word of God. And the New Testament (which the Old Testament promised would come about) I also take as the word of God. I take the whole 66 books as the word of God. And you can say basterdized or bitchized or any other word you'd like to use. I want to know the revelation of the whole book.Now, it probably escaped you. But by going into the Gospels I did show what was the attitude about Satan at the time Jesus was teaching. That is not exactly the same as Christian doctrine. That is history. They charged Jesus with casting our demons by the prince of demons. Jesus understood them to mean that He was casting out Satan's hosts by the power of Satan.I didn't see them dispute that was their meaning. So you would probably say that those Jews were "bastardizing" the Hebrew Bible also. If we do not have the same God then we're really in trouble, aren't we.However, what we have in the New Testament is that same God Who has become incarnate, lived, died a redemptive death, and rose from the dead, and imparted Himself into His believers as the Holy Spirit - the life giving Spirit.He said that He would inscribed His laws into our inward parts and write them on our hearts. We believe that this means His imaparted something living of Himself into living people. Life can be inscribed into life. He imparted His law of life into the receivers of the crucified and resurrected Messiah Jesus.And though you may utterly reject this now, there is no question in my mind that Israel as a nation will one day recognize this Yeshua as their Messiah which they missed. It is the one inevitable irony of human history.The total universal vindication of Jesus of Nazareth with Israel is, I am sure, and inevitable climax of the history of the Jews. Then we Gentiles who have believed in thier previously rejected Messiah, will watch the natural branches grafted again into their own olive tree.That will be a glorious time. Israel will come to recognize Jesus as the Messiah. "Basterdize" ... "disingenuous" ... these insults to not move me.I want the light that the New Testament apostles and prophets had concerning all that was written before. This is today. I am not in 4000 years ago. What God spoke to those ages was for that time. What He has highlighted for His seekers today is deeper and appropriate to this stage of His ongoing and unfolding eternal purpose.Perhaps had you been one of the captives taken to Babylon you may have accused Daniel of basterdizing the Scriptures also because of the visions God had shown him concerning the prophecies about the Jewish nation and the world.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

God warns His people of old that He will do new things. Sometimes they may seem to eclipse the former things He did. This is not my interpretation of a passage. This is my application of a passage to illuminate upon God's ways.Don't anyone come back to me and say that the passage does not have anything to do with the New Testament. It has to do with the ways of God, generally.God incarnate as the Son of God, the Messiah, was one of these new things. Some of the Jews were ready and opened to see it. They gave us The New Testament.The same God was acting. The same God was working. The same God was speaking. I take into account these new things that Yahweh did. I hold to them to illuminate upon His ways in the former times.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The term "Christianity" is not a positive term with me.
I do not consider myself a spokesman or a defender of "Christianity".I do not consider myself an apologist for "Christianity". But I understand what you are getting at and I will answer you something.The term "Christianity" means a lot of different things to different people. Some people think of the Spanish Inquisition when they think of Christianity. Others think of the Ku Klux Klan when they think of "Christianity". Others think of thousands of sects, denominations, divisions endlessly dividing one from another as "Christianity". Still others think of a political party when they think of "Christianity".So I do not know what runs through your mind when you demand that I step forward and speak on behalf of "Christianity". I am for CHRIST. I am not for any "ANITY".Let me rephrase you question. What makes me think non-Jewish people who receive Christ can know anything about Jewish religion?But let's consider some instances in history.The Moabitess Ruth surely did not know the Jewish religion as well as Naomi her mother-in-law. In fact Ruth came from a people's whom Yahweh had forbidden to enter into the congregation of the Lord for 10 generations. Yet there is one whole book in the Hebrew Bible named for this Moabitess woman. She sought God's people and gave herself to their God.Rehab, and the whole "Whore house" if you will in the city of Jericho also didn't know much about the Jewish religion. She knew enough that the God of the Jews was coming with an army to Canaan to punish the people for thier human sacrifices and idol worship and horrible sexual habits.Rehab the harlot cooperated with the Hebrew spies and was spared and the whole "whore house" if you will, with her relatives. Rehab the harlot knew enough how to be saved. One of the Hebrew soldiers married Rehab the harlot from a city cursed by God forever. And she became a great ancestress of David the king.The Nenevites didn't know much about the Jewish religion. They had a human consience though. And they knew enough to repent at the preaching of the Jewish prophet Jonah.There is only one God. And he chose the Jews to be reveivers of His revelation, custodians of His first covenant, and the nation from which the Savior of the world would be born.We Gentile dogs have a God created human conscience. And those of us who have believed in the Jewish Messiah - the Savior of the world have received mercy from God to at least know that we are sinners in need of His gracious offer of redemption and salvation.We know God the Righteous. We know His Son who lived and died and rose again that we may be saved. And temprarily God seems to want to provoke His people the Jews to jealousy for a season. They broke His heart by rejecting the Messiah Whom He sent.We also know that the days of the Gentiles coming to the gospel of grace will come to a close. God will turn again to establish the kingdom of Israel. We believe that those individual Jews who turn, repent, and believe in Jesus (Yeshua) are getting in on a wonderful thing early. Today Jews may turn to Jesus on an individual basis.The day will soon come when Israel will turn again to the Son of God on a national basis. And we Gentile dogs who eat the crumbs underneath the table will rejoice and exult that God's nation Israel has woken up from their long tragic sleep of unbelief. I don't agree with your premise to begin with. And secondly, I don't think that God is incompetent and careless so that He would allow the crucial message of the Son to be lost under a plethora of human mistakes. No, God is not a dummy. The hairs on your head are numbered. Why should God be careless about the words of Jesus?I believe that the life, death, resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth were of the activity of God. And I don't believe that God is so dumb that the message got lost because someone or someones just couldn't seem to recall what was done and said.The faulty , error prone, "bad memory" - "TOO Long ago to recall accurately" New Testament theory, I reject. The evidence for such is not strong. And I don't think that God is not able to preserve the most crucial testimony of the life of His Son and His original apostles.Perhaps, you are HOPING that it all got LOST and mixed up. That is ofen the skeptic's wishful thinking in his unbelief of the Gospel. You know that God who said "Let there be light" in Genesis? You know that God that said to Moses "I AM THAT I AM"? That God is the MAN JESUS.I don't know if I can make it more emphatic. That God who is all throughout the Old Testament is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit God. He is one God. And He has an incredible operation to dispense His life into man.That God that said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" (Gen.1:26), who said "The man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil..." (Gen. 3:22), who said "Come, Let Us go down and there confound their language (Gen.11:7), Who also said "Who shall I send? Who will go for Us?" (Isa. 6:8) and who spoke many many other things and did many other things in the Old Testament - THAT God is the man Jesus Who was Son of God and born of the virgin Mary.That Man is Yahweh, God Almighty come to us as a born child and a Son given as the Eternal Father (See Isa. 9:6).That Man who was tired, wept, went to the toilet (or whatever they used in those days), who hungered, who slept, who was sinless, who healed the sick, raised the dead, taught the people, cleansed the lepers, was unfairly betrayed, crucified and nailed to a cross, and in three days got up out of the grave to be Lord of all, THAT Man is the One True God and the God of the Jews.And He commands that we BELIEVE into Him. And it is for this reason that they cried out "Crucify Him!" because He taught and ACTED like that God. This is the one God and He became flesh and tabernacled among us in Jesus of Nazareth. He now gives His Holy Spirit to those who believe into the Son of God. The mild and meek Jesus will not be so mild and meek in His second coming. But to those who think to exclude those who trusted in this God but were rebuffed by the Jews:This first disciples were Jews as well as their Master Jesus - God become a man. These Jews did understand the Hebrew religion. and of the Jews who follow Jehovah's plan of salvation and suffer rejection because of it God says: So beware of casting out John, Peter, James, Paul and the other apostles thinking you are doing a service for God. You will end up being put to shame by God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't have too to say about this at the moment. But this picture is one of the things which convences me that the Bible is a divine book. I don't think any human being has the wisdom to portray this picture.Adam was immediately under God's rule. He was also innocent and he had within him by God's creation an emmergency break system. He did not need to use it yet. But that break system was his human conscience. In case something went wrong, God prepared an this break system within man - the conscience to at least restrict man from plunging uncontrollably into rebellion against God.The subtlety of the enemy of God was to seduce man to be independent of God. The Devil did not seduce him to do something "bad" as much as to do something independent. In an attempt to do something independent from God man fell under the authroity of Satan's kingdom of revolt, rebellion, and independence from God. This revolt, rebellion, and independence from God is a dynamic withdrawl into death.At this time I don't have much to say about the word "amoral". That is true. Immediately man goes to work to repair the breach between he and God. It is as if man can break the relationship. But he cannot fix it. God created man and established a relationship. Man is able to damage that relationship. But he cannot fix it once it is damaged. It requires God Himself to fix the damaged relationship.Man does not believe this. Man must be convinced of this. Man can damage the fellowship with God. But once the fellowship is damaged it requires God to repair it.Redemption is purchasing man back from another owner. By the fall of man man became legally owned by the law of God. Satan's possession of man is illegal. The Bible speaks of God delivering us from Satan by His power. He must bind the strong man and by strength, deliver us from the evil power with God's greater power. But with the law of God, we must be bought back. We must be legally paid for. We have come under the law of God.The Bible says that Christ has redeemed the believers from the curse of the law.Justification, is to be made right with God according to His standard of righteousness. That is not made right according to our standard but God's standard.Reconciliation is the action of God to remove the enmity between God and man. Reconciliation makes two who have become enemies become friends again.These themes - Redemption, Justification, Reconciliation, with Atonement are developed throughout the rest of the Scriptures.Man has damaged his communion with God. And the Bible tells the story of what God must do to bring man back to Himself and back to the eternal purpose of God - which is to dispense the divine life and nature into man.Now one word about "becoming like God":Becomming like God in itself is not the problem. If God did not want in some measure for man to be like God He would not have made man in His own image, or given man dominion, or put man before the tree of life. So simply becoming like God is not the problem.I am convinced that God wanted man to be like Himself.The problem was to be like God as an autonomous, self existing and independent creature. Every life is dependent. Man too was created dependent upon God. The fall of man was to become "like God" in being independent and totally self governing and self existing.Some posters here want ot insist that Satan has nothing to do with this. I strongly do not agree. Satan did not come after as an afterthought. Satan preceeded the rebellion of man. It is not the other way around.The arch angel led the way of rebellion and captured humanity to join him. Some posters are vehement about denying this. To them Satan has nothing to do with man's error in Genesis. But it is just that a fuller disclosure of this enemy of God which seduced man away, is not revealed in greater details until latter in the whole revelation of the Bible. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning