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Author Topic:   Why Would a Loving God Create Hell?
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5946 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 115 of 196 (449146)
01-16-2008 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ICANT
01-16-2008 5:51 PM


The Hidden God
quote:
God says if you believe on my Son you will receive eternal life.
That is the pardon he offered to mankind.
All man has to do is believe and receive.
ICANT stop for a moment and think abstractly.
Why would the God of the material universe require you to "believe on [the] Son" to receive eternal life?
This alleged God requires an individual to believe this however the evidence is flimsy, speculative, questionable and even conflicting. Why would this God (who created the material universe) remain so coy, hidden and aloof? If an omnipotent God wanted us to know his existence he could do so without question.
Look at the gospels that lay out this notion. We don't have the autographs, they demonstratively have redactions, they show evidence of using a common source, and the authors and their credibility are largely unknown. I can think of many ways God could make the gospels undeniable from God - such as making the originals incorruptible like allegedly was done with the clothes and sandals of the Hebrew's during the Exodus.
Here is the point, chain letters and Confidence men require this sort of "faith" based on incomplete, questionable, non-verifiable evidence so why would God use the same methods employed by chain letters and con men?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ICANT, posted 01-16-2008 5:51 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ICANT, posted 01-16-2008 10:32 PM iceage has replied
 Message 123 by Tal, posted 01-17-2008 7:03 AM iceage has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5946 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 118 of 196 (449177)
01-16-2008 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ICANT
01-16-2008 10:32 PM


Re: The Hidden God
iceage writes:
Why would the God of the material universe require you to "believe on [the] Son" to receive eternal life?
icant writes:
Good question. I got a better one and not related at all.
Why would the God of the material universe allow His Son to come and suffer the humilation of being striped naked hung on a cross to die, spit upon laughed at, and seperated from Him for the space of three hours to satisfy His justice for the sin debt of mankind such as we are. Unthankful, unholy, unbelieving, wretched, sinful poor excuses for human beings?
I guess the answer would have to be the same for both questions.
They seem to me to be entirely different questions.
icant writes:
This is not a democracy it is a dictatorship...
God created the heaven and the earth and everything in it. I know you disagree.
I can accept that reality is a dictatorship and I don't disagree that God created the earth - heaven/hell is another story as we have no evidence of heaven/hell.
icant writes:
This game of life we are playing is God's game. God makes the rules. I know you disagree.
Actually I don't disagree....
icant writes:
I know you say but there is no God. I want to see you convince God of that when you do meet Him face to face.
This of course avoids my question and is a scare tactic similar to the one used in chain letters - "boy you will be sorry if you don't comply".
Why would God hide? And why would God place incomplete and questionable evidence in front of us and then hinge the decision on heaven or hell based on that uninformed decision. Why would God use the exact same formula that chain letters and con men use? This is the question you have avoided answering.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ICANT, posted 01-16-2008 10:32 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 01-17-2008 1:19 AM iceage has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5946 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 121 of 196 (449188)
01-17-2008 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
01-17-2008 1:19 AM


Re: The Hidden God
ICANT your hypothetical scenario is like your prior post completely disconnected and unrelated from the question.
Why would God require a belief in an invisible entity with incomplete, corruptible and questionable evidence as a condition of get-of-hell?
Again this is the formula of chain letters and con men, why would God's plan look just like a chain letter or a con?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 01-17-2008 1:19 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 01-17-2008 2:06 PM iceage has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5946 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 126 of 196 (449302)
01-17-2008 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Tal
01-17-2008 7:03 AM


Re: The Hidden God
iceage writes:
This alleged God requires an individual to believe this however the evidence is flimsy, speculative, questionable and even conflicting. Why would this God (who created the material universe) remain so coy, hidden and aloof? If an omnipotent God wanted us to know his existence he could do so without question.
Tal writes:
Any parent or lover knows this: love is chosen. You cannot, in the end, force anyone to love you.
I have seen various forms of this argument (often with reference to free will) ie "God doesn't not want to force us to love him". By providing verifiable and concrete evidence of his existence does not in any way entail "forcing" love.
The Kierkegaard parable fails in so many ways. One in as you pointed out the King does not die. However the king does not dangle the seduction of "everlasting life" in front of the beloved either or threaten with punishment.
To rewrite the Kierkegaard parable you have to have the king to tell his beloved "Love me and enjoy my palace, refuse and experience my dungeon". Does that work?
If God as you contend wants our free love then would he dangle the (self-centric) seduction of the survival of the ego beyond the grave and threaten of punishment in hell?
To those who claim they "Love the Lord" take self salvation out of the picture and see if they "Love the Lord" - is this free unconditional love?
But I alway come back to this... The religious doctrine that says "believe in this invisible being and be saved, ignore and pay the consequences" plays with the same psychology as a chain letter. God would not write a chain letter.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Tal, posted 01-17-2008 7:03 AM Tal has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5946 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 127 of 196 (449303)
01-17-2008 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ICANT
01-17-2008 2:06 PM


Re: The Hidden God
I don't want to communicate? You are playing some game that does not address the question in any way, but is a diversionary tactic.
The answer is obvious anyone would say "yes" save me.
OK now explain why would the God of the expansive material universe hide within a human historical context, provide no physical or material evidence, provide no independently verifiable evidence, delivered a confusing and conflicting message that people have interpreted a thousands different ways, a message that has evolved over time, and present Sola Fide that plays just like a chain letter - small entrance fee, with a promise of bliss and a threat of eternal punishment. This message is an optimized meme-complex honed and naturally selected over the years that effectively takes over its hosts and compels the infected to spread the message again and again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 01-17-2008 2:06 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by ICANT, posted 01-17-2008 7:45 PM iceage has not replied

  
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