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Author Topic:   Misconceptions of E=MC^2
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 85 of 243 (452361)
01-30-2008 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Chiroptera
01-29-2008 3:37 PM


But if you read his posts, I think you'll see that Heinrick's confusion is far, far deeper than we can possibly imagine.
you are quite correct I did become confused. It's along time since I did algebra and I had forgotten to reverse the equasion. As I haven't a clue how to find maths. synbols I will write it in words. You clever people will understand without the symbols, I'm sure.
Now that you have got me back on track I meant to say that:
e=mc2 in reverse is the equivelent of 'the square root of speed/light divided by an equivelent amount of mass = minus energy (mass).
In other words if mass can produce energy then energy can produce mass. This was the original idea of Einsteins theory of everything.
However, this formula has never been tested. It was my contention that this half of the equasion has been misunderstood in this forum.
Please refrain from personal comments if you can. I really don't wish to answer to some posts because of this. A little patience and a little consideration can go a long way. regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Chiroptera, posted 01-29-2008 3:37 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Woodsy, posted 01-30-2008 7:51 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 86 of 243 (452362)
01-30-2008 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by cavediver
01-30-2008 4:31 AM


Re: E=MC2 experiments
You know absolutely NOTHING about this subject, so why are you so intent on making a complete idiot of yourself?
I can admit to my mistakes. I have amended quite a few and made my apologies. What do you want from me?
Why have we suddenly a forum full of arrogant idiots? You haven't a clue about this subject so why are you so sure that the problem lies with others and not with yourself?
I see what you mean, hey cavediver?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 4:31 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 7:11 AM pelican has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 88 of 243 (452364)
01-30-2008 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by cavediver
01-30-2008 5:26 AM


energy and mass
Where did the energy come from when splitting the atom?
An equasion has to balance in every respect.
Science Dictionary: E = mc2
An equation derived by the twentieth-century physicist Albert Einstein, in which E represents units of energy, m represents units of mass, and c2 is the speed of light squared, or multiplied by itself. (See relativity.)
Because the speed of light is a very large number and is multiplied by itself, this equation points out how a small amount of matter can release a huge amount of energy, as in a nuclear reaction.
This is proved.
However to obtain a small amount of mass from a huge amount of energy cannot be proved and cannot be tested. I contend that some believe e=mc2 has been verifed by testing and this is not true, only in reverse. It is asserted to be true because it must be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 5:26 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 7:37 AM pelican has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 89 of 243 (452365)
01-30-2008 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by cavediver
01-30-2008 5:42 AM


don't insult me
The wisest words you have uttered all this thread. There is hope for you. Now apply that humility when you read my post above.
Flattery is the lowest form of sarcasm and I wasn't talking to you. You mistake my honesty for my humility. You wouldn't recognize humility if it bit you up the arse. You don't even rcognise your own arrogance and humility is way underneath all that. regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 5:42 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 7:39 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 97 of 243 (452377)
01-30-2008 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Woodsy
01-30-2008 7:51 AM


Conversion of energy to mass is happening inside your body all the time. Part of you is the nuclide Potassium-40, which is radioactive. Just after it decays, an energetic gamma-ray (energy) is emitted. Sometimes, when the gamma-ray encounters a nucleus, part of its energy is converted to a pair of particles (electron and positron) which possess mass. This is a very well-known nuisance in gamma-ray spectrometry.
Really interesting. i was hoping to take this to another level which does include the human body. I had no idea this knowledge was available but maybe you are the best one to open a new thresd on this subject.
It is unfortunate that you have taken hold of an erroneous notion. Now you have an opportunity to relinquish it and carry on without it.
It's a pity you had to ruin a perfectly good post with taking the stance of 'you are right and I am wrong'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Woodsy, posted 01-30-2008 7:51 AM Woodsy has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 98 of 243 (452378)
01-30-2008 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by RAZD
01-30-2008 7:54 AM


Re: keeping it simple
first line should have been "If E = m”c is true, then ..."
Please keep it simple.
Sorry, didn't mean to skip explanations of the steps.
The point is that then energy plus mass before an event that changes energy to mass or vice versa should be related to the energy plus mass after the event.
You can measure the change in energy = E
You can measure the change in mass = m
If there was conversion, then when one is positive the other should be negative.
It is.
And if the conversion rate is constant, then they should be related by some constant value. We can define and determine this constant by:
E + Kp”m = 0, where Kp is the assumed constant of conversion
and solving for the constant gives you
Kp”m = -E
Kp = -E/m
Thanks but these symbols are way over my head. Can these be expressed in words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by RAZD, posted 01-30-2008 7:54 AM RAZD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by molbiogirl, posted 01-30-2008 4:27 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 100 of 243 (452382)
01-30-2008 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Modulous
01-30-2008 8:08 AM


Re: Keeping it simple
Would you agree that if we were to measure, e, m, and c and we were to find that e=mc2 that would confirm the equation was accurate? We just measure each of the variables and see how they relate to one another. If they relate to one another in the same way then the equation is right - yes?
Likewise, if you measured, e, m, and c you might find that m = e/c2
If we find that e=mc2 when we measure e, m and c. If we find that m = e/c2 would you agree that e = mc2 is a correct description of the relationship between energy and mass?
What does e/c2 represent?
I really don't dispute that the equasion is correct. It seems that most posts are concerned with explaining the meaning of e=mc2 to me as though I didn't understand it. I do. I just made a few mistakes. mainly because I am human.
Once more my contention is that many perceptions of E=MC2 are in fact, misconceptions. There are many contradicting versions from different points of view. This is science that is supposed to answer all evolutionists questions and because it is physical proof, creationists are supposed to accept it on face value without a hope of understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2008 8:08 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2008 9:06 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 106 of 243 (452557)
01-30-2008 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Percy
01-30-2008 8:30 AM


Re: E=MC2 experiments
The equivalence has been experimentally verified in both directions. The conversion of energy to mass is much more difficult because such huge amounts of energy are necessary to create very little mass.
Thanks. I have been waiting for this. This is great. This is the clearest, simplest understandable definition on this thread.
Can you give an example of energy to mass?

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 Message 99 by Percy, posted 01-30-2008 8:30 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-30-2008 5:26 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 108 of 243 (452581)
01-30-2008 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Modulous
01-30-2008 9:06 AM


Re: Keeping it simple
m
e = mc2
divide both sides by c2
e/c2 = m
Ok Thanks. This equasion e/c2=m, is the same value as e=mc2. yes? What does m equal? Genuine question. I don't know how to do it.
Yes, you've expressed some of them yourself, providing a wonderful example of the thread's topic; that it is about getting matter travel at impossible speeds so that it becomes energy, for example.
The formula for 'm' will hopefully clear this up.
You seem to have doubts that it has been experimentally confirmed. So, if you would be so kind as to answer the question: Would you agree that if we were to measure, e, m, and c and we were to find that e=mc2 that would confirm the equation was accurate?
I see that in some expressions of the equasion, it becomes a testable formula and other expressions of it are a balanced mathematical equasion that remains a theory. In my mind E=MC2 can be a theory that is supported by empirical evidence, a formula or a mathematical equasion.
I contend that when it is in the form of a theory, it is not testable. When it is an equasion it balances in numerical form. When it is a formula it is testable.
But I could be wrong and I'm sure someone will point it out to me. That is the name of the game, isn't it? I am a new kid on the block.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2008 9:06 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2008 7:31 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 110 of 243 (452605)
01-30-2008 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by molbiogirl
01-30-2008 4:27 PM


Re: keeping it simple
heinrik writes:
Thanks but these symbols are way over my head. Can these be expressed in words.
Re: keeping it simple
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense.
You just don't want to try.
I know what it's like to sit in a physics lecture and be so gd lost that you're just watching a guy write on a chalkboard.
I felt that way in P Chem today.
But RAZD's explanation is simple, clear and to the point. Every variable is defined, every step is explained.
But maybe I am expecting too much. After all. You were unable to deduce the E = mc2 is equivalent to E/c2 = m.
Oh. And one more thing.
You are aware that particle accelerators create matter from energy now, yes?
(Adding, of course, the necessary caveats re: "creation" that have been mentioned in this thread, e.g. Message 103.)
Edited by molbiogirl, 01-31-2008 06:28 AM: No reason given.
Edited by molbiogirl, 01-31-2008 06:29 AM: darn codes
This is a fine example of a superior attitude over someone who openly admitted lack of knowledge (from post1) and is obviously trying very hard to understand concepts in an area not familiar with.
I am aware of my own 'inferiororities'. Are you familiar with your superiorority? Did you not notice the title? Can you simplify anything?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by molbiogirl, posted 01-30-2008 4:27 PM molbiogirl has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 111 of 243 (452609)
01-30-2008 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by New Cat's Eye
01-30-2008 5:26 PM


Re: E=MC2 experiments explained in simplest forms
Can you give an example of energy to mass?
cavediver already did in Message 80 where he linked to this page.
Yes I did check them out. I see my mistake.
I should have said, "can you give me a SIMPLE example that the layman such as myself can comprehend?"
I need a simplified version which I believe you are perfectly capable of doing but don't try. I have no evidence to prove this. It is purely my observation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-30-2008 5:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2008 8:25 PM pelican has replied
 Message 121 by kongstad, posted 01-31-2008 3:06 AM pelican has not replied
 Message 123 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2008 10:48 AM pelican has not replied
 Message 125 by NosyNed, posted 01-31-2008 11:39 AM pelican has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 112 of 243 (452621)
01-30-2008 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Modulous
01-30-2008 7:31 PM


Re: Keeping it simple
18 = 2 x 32
means the same as
18\32 = 2
When I went to school a long time ago those mathematical equasions would mean thus-
18=2x32
18=64 ??
18/32=21
0.5625=21 ??
It's the same equation rearranged, yes. They are identical 'statements' 'worded' differently.
This seems to be a contradiction.
Do the letters in e=mc2 not represent a measurable number?
This post has everything tied up in knots and you are supposed to be helping me understand. What goes on?
The question I am asking is very simple. Do you agree we can test whether the formula is actually an accurate description of the real world by measuring the real world values of e, m and c and seeing how they are related?
Is it a formula, an equasion or a theory? Which one are you describing? Looking at the algebraic equasions you demonstarated, I would say definately not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2008 7:31 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2008 8:39 PM pelican has not replied
 Message 118 by fallacycop, posted 01-30-2008 10:05 PM pelican has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 117 of 243 (452640)
01-30-2008 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Modulous
01-30-2008 8:25 PM


Re: E=MC2 experiments explained in simplest forms
Modulous, I appreciate your effort of trying to connect to me on my level of understanding.
I am jus an average Joe and I have tried very hard to get my head around all the conflicting information, taking me down paths I have never been before. For example, I had to look up 'empirical'. I hadn't a clue what it meant. I have researched as much as my little head can take in and now it is completely boggled.
I am going on holiday for a few days. You guys have wore me out. I hope the thread doesn't die off while I'm away. I'll be fighting fit when I return. regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Modulous, posted 01-30-2008 8:25 PM Modulous has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 152 of 243 (453384)
02-02-2008 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by teen4christ
01-29-2008 4:21 PM


It is all english
Well, I don't think this is the source of the confusion, actually. I think the source of confusion is that laymen put too much values in the words while real physicists only use words as tools to communicate with other people.
Aren't physicists real people? Only joking! How do you communicate scientific information to the layman? Or do you want to keep it to yourself?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Vacate, posted 02-02-2008 3:54 AM pelican has not replied
 Message 154 by Jaderis, posted 02-02-2008 5:33 AM pelican has replied
 Message 155 by Trixie, posted 02-02-2008 6:23 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5015 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 156 of 243 (453418)
02-02-2008 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Jaderis
02-02-2008 5:33 AM


Re: It is all english
You aren't talking about me then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Jaderis, posted 02-02-2008 5:33 AM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
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