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Author | Topic: Why did God forgive our sins? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Legend writes: so you're saying that Jesus lied when he told the man what to do to gain eternal life! Had the man been able to do what Jesus said I am sure He would have honored his Word. But people had been trying to inherit eternal life for several thousand years and was not able to do so. BTW Inherit and gaining is two different words also.
Legend writes: err. no..the first man in the garden didn't know good from evil until he ate the fruit (Gen 3:22). Not only God didn't protect him, he set him up for it! Don't you read your Bible ? The man in the garden had one rule, don't eat, if you eat you die.He did not need to know good from evil. If you will examine what I said you will see that I stated that the child was protected until he came to know good and evil as the man in the garden WHEN HE ATE THE FRUIT. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Legend writes: so you're saying that Jesus lied when he told the man what to do to gain eternal life! Had the man been able to do what Jesus said I am sure He would have honored his Word. But people had been trying to inherit eternal life for several thousand years and was not able to do so. BTW Inherit and gaining is two different words also.
Legend writes: err. no..the first man in the garden didn't know good from evil until he ate the fruit (Gen 3:22). Not only God didn't protect him, he set him up for it! Don't you read your Bible ? The man in the garden had one rule, don't eat, if you eat you die.He did not need to know good from evil. If you will examine what I said you will see that I stated that the child was protected until he came to know good and evil as the man in the garden WHEN HE ATE THE FRUIT. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Legend writes: ??!! to transfer this to my 'guy-playing-football-breaks-window' example I would have to chase after the window breaker with a baseball bat, beat him black & blue until he yells "I surrender" and then and only then would I forgive him! Not at all. You could attempt to convince the window breaker that his actions are evil;, to show the damage, to show the injuries, to show the waste. A person can be brought to realise that evil resides in them without resorting to the measures you describe. Of course a person can refuse to be convinced and will be eventually beaten to death by the house owner. The window breaking will cease one way or the other; either you'll be convinced to stop or the house owners patience will run out and he'll come an beat you to a pulp. Gods sovereignty and reign are the prime concern here - not your life or where you spend it in eternity. Do you not think that Gods just wrath will be as satisfied pouring itself out on you in Hell as his love would be pouring itself out on you 'in Heaven'. Wherever you end up Legend, God is satisfied. -
what a cute way of saying 'if you don't believe in God he's going to break your legs'! It's not 'if you don't believe in God'. It's 'if you won't believe God' -
There is nothing to be 'put up' anything for the forgiveness. God gives it for free, there being nothing one has to do to get it
Oh goody! So noone has to accept Jesus as their saviour then! Phew that's a relief, I thought i was going to have to do that before I'm forgiven. Thanks for clearing that up. Seeing as no one can accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour without Gods action enabling them to accept that, I can't see any place for your doing anything. His action enabling you is his doing. You do nothing. Besides, it's after the point of your being saved that you believe in Christ as your saviour. Maybe only a moment after, even. Deciding your going to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour off your own bat won't achieve a person anything. No more than me calling myself Dr. iano makes me a doctor. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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Legend Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Legend writes:
so you're saying that Jesus lied when he told the man what to do to gain eternal life!ICANT writes: Had the man been able to do what Jesus said I am sure He would have honored his Word. are you implying that Jesus told the man to love god and his neighbour knowing full well that he couldn't do it? let's leave aside the fact that this would make Jesus an evil, teasing so and so for a while. Why then wouldn't Jesus tell the man what he could do, i.e. to accept him as his saviour?
ICANT writes: But people had been trying to inherit eternal life for several thousand years and was not able to do so. says who? and who would they inherit from? "We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Legend writes: Why then wouldn't Jesus tell the man what he could do, i.e. to accept him as his saviour? That is not what he wanted. He wanted to inherit eternal life.
Legend writes: says who? and who would they inherit from? Inherit means to come into posession as a right or divine portion. He wanted to be saved just like you do if God exists. You want God to save you just because you think He created you and owes it to you as a divine right or obligation on God's part. Man is not saved that way. God does not owe you or anyone anything. He provided a way man can receive a free full pardon. If you don't want it you don't have to take it. Your choice.
Ephe 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eternal life is a free gift. You can't buy it or earn it. But I am sure if he could have met the qualifications Jesus put to him he would have honored His Word. God Bless, Edited by ICANT, : No reason given. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Legend writes:
Why then wouldn't Jesus tell the man what he could do, i.e. to accept him as his saviour? ICANT writes: That is not what he wanted. He wanted to inherit eternal life. what are you on about? The man asked Jesus what to do in order to gain eternal life! Jesus told him to love God and love his neighbour as himself.Are you saying that this is not the way to gain eternal life, i.e. Jesus lied? Are you saying that Jesus told him what to do knowing full well that he couldn't do it, i.e. Jesus intentionally misled him? Are you saying that there's nothing one can do to gain eternal life, i.e. Jesus lied? Just what exactly are you saying?!
ICANT writes:
So when Jesus tell the man what to do to earn it, he's lying, according to you.
Eternal life is a free gift. You can't buy it or earn it. ICANT writes:
So you're saying that eternal life is a free gift but Jesus setup some more conditions specifically for this man. Was he teasing him or something? But I am sure if he could have met the qualifications Jesus put to him he would have honored His Word. You keep contradicting yourself and the Bible. I don't think you know what you believe in. You just want to believe in something, that's all. "We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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I am not going to reply to any of this message and I will explain why. How convenient! Straggler asks
Consider the following:
ICANT writes
If I were a ruler and I both created laws and decided upon the method of communicating those laws to my subjects - I personally would not condemn anyone to eternal damnation who was genuinely ignorant of those laws. I might give a relatively minor punishment to demonstrate that the guilty party should make better effort to learn the law of the land in future. But I would also take some reponsibility for communicating my own laws to those who need to know them. I certainly would not dish out the same punishment to those that are ignorant as those that willfully and knowingly break the law. I think this would be morally unjustified. If not - how do you reconcile these answers with the answers you give with regard to your supposedly good and just God? Am I, in the example above, more or less just than your God?So in light of all that Maybe God does have a way of conveying to people what they need to do. Given the number of people of faiths other than your own in the world (each equally convinced that you are as wrong about your beliefs as they as you believe they are about theirs) this seems a somwhat random, inefficient and pointles method of information distribution. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Straggler writes: Given the number of people of faiths other than your own in the world (each equally convinced that you are as wrong about your beliefs as they as you believe they are about theirs) this inefficient and pointles method of information distribution. That is truly a terrible condition, and waste of resources. Problem is we are not all right. In fact most would disagree with me. All who do not believe in being born again by the grace of God through faith without works. That is problably 90% of religion disagree with me. But even many of those who disagree with me God uses them to spread the word.
Straggler writes: How convenient! I gave you an example of what happened. God took care of that situation and I am sure He takes care of all others the same way so there is nothing to talk about that subject. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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I gave you an example of what happened. God took care of that situation and I am sure He takes care of all others the same way so there is nothing to talk about that subject.
One woman who felt compelled to go to your church for whatever reason........? One woman who no doubt was raised at least fully aware of, even if not part of, the Christian message and community.One woman. That is your answer to the eternal suffering of billions? What about the millions of Hindus who are never going to randomly decide to wander into your church?How does God give them a choice? Why does a good, just and omnipotent God use such unjust and inefficient methods of making people aware of a choice which will determine their eternal fate? Why does a good, just and omnipotent God effectively condemn billions of people to eternal damnation for no reason other than ignorance? If I were in Gods position I would ensure that everyone knew the choice I had put before them and that they had the opportunity to make that choice.That would seem only fair given the dire consequences of ignorance. Am I more just and more good than your God? Such a God is not good and not just. Think about it ICANT. How can you defend this and justify it to yourself? I don't understand. Or of course maybe your God is just not there at all. Then it all makes sense....................? Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Legend Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Legend writes: Why then wouldn't Jesus tell the man what he could do, i.e. to accept him as his saviour? ICANT writes: That is not what he wanted. He wanted to inherit eternal life. To which I replied:
quote: well, do you believe in Jesus or not? "We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"
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Legend Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
your reluctance to reply leads me to conclude that despite calling yourself a Christian you don't really accept what Jesus said. Another Christian in name only.
"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Hi Legend.
I have noticed that Christian arguments fall into one of perhaps three (maybe more) camps. 1) Saved by Grace....nothing we ever could do would be enough, hence it is what He did for us once and for all. 2) All are saved thanks to God...but then were we ever "lost"to begin with? Our behavior is what ultimately matters and it is our responsibility to do our best. God gave us a brain. (and a conscience) 3) Religion is mans attempt to find God. Its all a story anyway. Just live life!
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
1) Grace (an exclusively Christian position)
2) Works (all world Religions operate thus, including works based Christianity) 3) I'm not sure that this is a Christian position
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Legend Member (Idle past 5035 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Hi Phat,
I have to say I agree with iano in Message 163. It's either grace or works. Paul advocated grace through faith, Jesus advocated works. The third position you mentioned is more of an agnostic/atheist position. I always found it interesting when Christians try to shoehorn the philosophy of the originator of their religion into that of its founder. what's your take on this? "We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Legend writes: It's either grace or works. Paul advocated grace through faith, Jesus advocated works. I guess it all depends on several things, really. For one thing, how seriously should we take Paul/Saul? The churches who maintain that the Bible is inerrant and is the exclusive Word Of God (or WOG for short)would obviously place the words of Paul almost on the same level as the Gospels. To them, the Bible was written by humans yet was authored through the humans by the Holy Spirit. On the opposite extreme, many (such as Brian, our resident atheist Theologian) believe that the Bible is fallible at best, written through the eyes of Bronze Age goat herders who had nary a clue about the reality of our current day...and that Holy Spirit authorship is an unproven and thus tenuous position to take. On what does one base their belief? Many would accuse a majority of Christians to quotemine scriptures, for example. Well so what if we do? The argument is not one of science and rationality exclusively, after all. It does have an element of faith and belief involved in it. And so allow me to quote a few famous scriptures that many churches and Pastors use to support the faith that they advocate. 1) Phil 2:12-13-- Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.......Now, does God interact and commune with humans or not? This is a question of belief. It can never be proved one way or the other. 2) Phil 1:3-6-- I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. ....in other words, some of us ask ourselves if Gods Grace...indeed His Holy Spirit works through us at times or whether this is a Sky Daddy myth perpetuated by organized religion. I myself personally believe that God does interact and commune through humans...many of whom are not religious. Again, this is a faith/belief issue and cannot be provable one way or another. I am not entirely settled on the issue, either. For one thing, IF Christians who did have the Holy Spirit were thus ambassadors of WOG, why would they so often be caught acting so foolishly and be so resistant to scientific logic and secular rationality? Would the Spirit of God let them down that much?
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