The world has turned upside down!!! (Re: McCain vs. Obama for President)

You might have more fun if you make a commitment to debate in good faith rather than be a troll. I am sure there are plenty of things we can disagree on honestly without resorting to distorting peoples arguments. Maybe the fact that you were the one to "bait" should make you think a little bit about who is trying to have an honest conversation here. Yea it might be off topic. But what is on topic is that I fundamentally disagree with you about national security. It was our fumbling of middle eastern relations that led to the rise of terror groups in the first place. We need a president who cares about our national image to prevent this from getting worse and to restore the confidence in our national pride to ensure that something like that doesn't happen in the future. John McCain pretty much has demonstrated that he is entirely incapable of doing this.John McCain's idea of being a statesman is to sing, "Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran", and to suggest that one of the ways we can kill off the Iranians is to export more cigarettes to their country.Thats not being tough. Thats not taking a firm stand against an aggressive nation. That is simply being a dismissive idiot not fit for the office of the president.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

You have the gall to come here and proclaim that you know better what a man's religion is than he does.Apparrently not only think that you know more about the "real Obama" than we do, you also claim to know more about him than he does.Hubris - Wikipedia The Gall!!! You rebuke me saying that only God knows your heart yet you claim to know the heart of Obama against his very own words an actions!!!You chastise me from calling you a liar yet that is exactly what you are claiming Obama is by saying that he is lying about his religion!Here is another Greek word for you.Hypocrisy - Wikipedia

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I don't know how it is possible that you have read those books and came to the conclusion from their content that Obama is a black supremacist.I am willing to bet that by "examined" you have looked at quotes pulled from those books out of context, produced by right-wing smear jobs that can only attack Obama by making up stuff because they have nothing to say about his policies that most American's happen to agree with.In the news today, after weeks of McCain, Bush, and other neo-cons slamming Obama for continuing to press for a timeline for getting out of Iraq and lo-and-behold, it seems like the Iraqis prefer Obama's idea over the Bush/McCain policy of permanent bases and a longstanding "status of forces agreement".How much did we have to hear about so called "appeasment" regarding Obama wanting to open up talks with Iran just to find out that Condi Rice has set up diplomatic relations with Iran, and that Israel had been in talks with Syria even as our Retard-in-Chief stood there in the Kenesset and railed against diplomacy as an avenue to pursue US-Israeli interests?Right wingers cannot find anything to say about Obama except to make him seem scary to the public by appealing to his race and his biography. This is because they are slowly taking positions that are exactly what Obama has been talking about for months. We now have Bush and the State Dept talking about "time horizons" for getting out of Iraq. If they keep shifting positions this much then by November they are going to be shouting "Yes We Can!" and doing fist-bumps all around.It must be a very depressing time as a Republican to see the total castration of your party once the reality of the situation of the world finally bears fruit and you can no longer simply issue denials from behind the stand of the White House Press Secretary. Even those guys are coming out now adays to proclaim the lies, torture, and corruption fest that has been this disgrace of an administration.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Yea, I saw those. Thats is all shallow out of context media representation. You honestly think that YouTube video is good characterization of what Obama represents?It is a right-wing storyline that Obama is an empty suit. It is part of the same strategy that I talked about in my previous post. They cannot counter his ideas because every time they try they fall flat on their face. It is demonstrable. So they just stick to the talking points about him being "inexperienced" and ..oh...by the way....he's black Except for the parts of my post where I was contrasting the hypocrisy of people like Bush and McCain who have consistently opposed Obama's ideas only to turn around and have them backfire by endorsing those ideas after rebranding them. You know, the part of the post you entirely failed to address.WTF is a "time horizon" exactly NJ and how is that different from a "time line"?Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

It is just clips from the audio version of his book taken out of context exactly like right wingers have been doing in print. You know, the whole book has a audio forms.Even in the clips that are shown there, it is patently ridiculous how out of context they are. For example: He is talking about something that someone else said! He is commenting on state of racism in our country and you will find out if you read his books, that he often talks about reverse racism that blacks have toward whites and how that is just as bad of a problem that we need to solve.The fact of the matter is, all of those quotes are GROSSLY out of context. Just because someone clipped them out of the audio book instead of the printed book doesn't change that at all. That is just plainly not true. Just because he says that he will actually listen to his constituency rather than rule by ideologue like Bush does not mean that he thinks he is an empty suit. You really honestly think that what he has said means that? You cannot fathom that you are possibly reading something else into what he has said? Have you read either of his books? And I know many conservatives who think Powell is not conservative enough in the neo-con sense of the word. The point is not that they are racist, I didn't say that. I said that they are using every tactic at their disposal to make Obama seem scary rather than address the issues. That means pulling every card; funny name, voracious pastor, ex-Muslim father, etc. Its not just his ethnicity. They have no vector to attack him on issues.THAT is the point I bought up that you have yet to engage. He has been correct on Pakistan, on Afghanistan, on Iran, and now on Iraq any time they have TRIED to tag him on foreign policy issues. You don't seem to grasp the fact that I AM talking about Obama. I am talking about how when they have tried to criticize him on issues, they have had to backtrack, and in some cases even take his positions as their own because reality has dictated it.This IS about Obama NJ. I am talking about Obama but he doesn't exist on a planet by himself. He has his critics, prominently the key Republicans players and pundits in this, and it is against their criticism that he has shown exactly that he is not just an empty vessel. MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest VideosU.S., Iraq Agree To 'Time Horizon'BBC NEWS | Middle East | US seeks 'time horizon' on IraqIf you are educated as to Obama's position on this, please tell me how the new administration policy in Iraq differs in the slightest to what Obama has been talking about since he was elected into the Senate?Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Cover to cover.But that wasn't the question. You claimed to have "examined" his books. What does "examined" entail?Did you read them? Or did you get short snippets of out of context quotes collected by right-wing smear jobs?As a Christian, I am sure you have been frustrated many times with people taking the Bible out of context. What makes these quote mines any different logically from that?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I don't claim to know more about Obama than he does. I take him at his word that he is a Christian. You are the only one substituting your judgement for another man's faith! I did substantiate it in my last post.The man himself has said that he is not a Muslim. You seem to think that you know better what the faith of the man is more than him. You are STILL complaining about me judging you yet have no problem with your supposed superior judgement of Obama's belief contrary to both evidence and reason.the claptrap you posted 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. is all paranoid ravings that have already been totally shown to be false. The fact that you keep bringing them up IS THE SUBSTANTIATION that you are in fact lying.It is not just being about being mistaken. The things you are saying are objectivly slanderous lies. You may not like it, but why would I ever take what you like into account when describing what is blatant reality?Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

When did I call you a liar? If I did I certainly don't remember it.So you can pull a couple of other quotes out of the book, what is that supposed to mean?Why is it so hard to just answer the question, did you read the books? What in the books lends support to your conclusions? I am curious because I have read those books and there was not one iota that made me even think "black supremacist".Combine that with the fact that there are real life examples of people taking quotes from his book out of context, like NJ in this very thread. Unless you can provide something more substantial to show us what from the books you drew your conclusions on, what else am I supposed to think except that you are just as misinformed than they are.Its a very simple, yes or no question. Did you read them?If so, what parts led you to believe he is a black supremacist?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

That is blatantly not true. Read my comment again: I said I don't know how you could have come to that conclusion. This could be for 2 reasons, either you didn't actually read them, or you came to a different conclusion than I did based on what you did read.That is why I asked you as a followup to my question about having read the books was what from the books do you feel supports your opinion?I understand that you are forming your opinion from more than the books, but what part do the books play in your opinion?Honestly, I still cannot fathom, that anything from those books could, even with other factors, support the conclusion that you have come to. So please educate me.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Look, you can take whatever opinion you want on Obama's stance on race relations. I feel like I am fighting against only everything that will fit into the confines of an anecdote.I would suggest to anyone else concerned about this to pick up either of Obama's books either Audacity of Hope or Dreams of my Father. If you want a good free insight into where Obama stands on race in America I would recommend reading this which is also much shorter than the books.Transcript of Obama's speech - CNN.comThis all started when you replied to me claiming that Obama is short on policies. At least in the arena of his foreign policy, and I mean no offense by this, you don't seem to be current.I don't know what news you watch but it just seems to be ironic how many times Obama has stated a position, have conservatives and/or Hillary criticize him, only later to be vindicated.1. During the primary Obama took the position that he will order attacks against terrorists in Pakistan without the consent of their government if we had actionable intelligence. He was criticized and called "inexperienced" for taking that position. A few weeks later the military launched an air strike in Pakistan against AQ leadership without the consent of Pakistan and were widely lauded for their success in taking out some of the more dangerous leaders.2. During the primary Obama took the position that we need to initiate diplomatic relationships with Iran and North Korea. He was criticized and called "inexperienced" for taking that position. Bush even called him out on the floor of the Israeli Kenesset and the only thing you heard about in the news for the next week was talks about "appeasement". The next week it came to light that even as Bush had been standing their in Israel railing against diplomacy, Israel had been in quiet peace negotiations with Syria. In different timing we were part of multi-lateral talks with North Korea on disarmament. And just recently, as of a few days ago, the State Department was setting up and engaging in talks with Iran about economic incentives in exchange for the cessation of uranium enrichment.3. Obama's position on Iraq is to have an organized 16 month withdraw from Iraq which would have most of our troops out by 2010 and has consistently said that we need to beef up troops in Afghanistan. He was criticized and called "inexperienced" for taking that position. People were saying that Afghanistan was fine and that we needed to stay the course in Iraq. They even said that we should respect Iraqi sovereignty and that if we were asked to leave that we would. Now we have multiple Iraqi officials who agree that the US should be out by 2010. They are rejecting US demands for permanent bases and open ended presence. The situation in Afghanistan is deteriorating to the point that US forces are actually retreating from positions near the border. Now almost everyone agrees that we need more troops in Afghanistan. The only place they could come from is Iraq because the surge brigades are still out of rotation. The administration is proposing time commitments calling them "time horizons". Even McCain advisers are now saying that McCain could get troops out of Iraq even faster that Obama.Vindicated on every point. This is just regarding middle east foreign policy mostly. Only because it gets more news. Are you still of the opinion that Obama has no positions only lofty speeches?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

What would that really say about his character, that he completely and utterly abandons his principles just to pander to the neo-con wing of the Republican party to win an election?I mean, here is a guy who voted FOR torture while at the same time highlights his time as a POW in almost every ad he has put out thus far.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Apparently I understood it just fine because you essentially just reiterated your position below. He is not the same today. That is if you believe what he says and the positions he is displaying to the public.Are you saying that there is some kind of moderate dog whistle that he is blowing to signal that he is just pandering to the right but will actually govern as a moderate?

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Moreover in this circumstance, on this issues he has changed on, they are not changes for the better.His positions are self-contradictory. He claims to be fiscally conservative while describing plans that would have him spending more than Obama would. He wants to give health care tax credits while at the same time taxing employer provided health care as income. There are plenty of people who are better qualified to know if it works or not. What are John McCain's credentials when it comes to criminology and intelligence? Because you see, there are plenty of people who have studied torture and it is well understood among those people that it in fact does not work.Saying that a POW is the most qualified to know if torture is effective is simply asinine.Of course all of that leave aside the moral question of torture and the risk it places on our soldiers when we as a nation support a policy of torture. John McCain being a hypocrit on torture is only the icing on the cake of reprehension that ANYBODY, especially Christians, should feel against someone who would support those kinds of heinous acts against another human being.Our nation was founded on the moral superiority of our values which from day one included very strict admonishment of torture policies. -- George Washington And you see nothing wrong with that?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Thats not what I said because you can't read.I said that if McCain thinks torture works, it is irrelevant if he was once a POW or not, he is standing AGAINST the experts who have studied it that shows that it in fact DOES NOT WORK!McCain is also standing against the inherant immorality of it regardless if it works or not. (it absolutly does not)McCain is also standing against our troops who are put in danger when we as a country condone torture policies.McCain is also standing against history as the very founding of our nation was amongst ideals which included seperating ourselves from the barbarism of the rest of the world.McCain is just plain wrong on torture on all accounts. It doesn't matter whatsoever if he was a POW or not.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Yes you do get information. But as the studies have shown, you get bogus information. People will in fact say anything to get you to stop torturing them. This is a fact that has been verified numerous times at numerous points in history. You know what, you are right. You are exactly right. I should have noticed it earlier.John McCain should know more than anybody else that torture doesn't work. What I should have said is that it is asinine the thought that his time as a POW gives him a superior opinion to CONTRADICT the well known fact that torture does not work.John McCain should know more about the ineffectivness of torture than others because he himself gave false confessions. He should in fact know that it does not work becuase while he was a POW, under torture they got him to confess that he was a war criminal and to a variety of other things that he didn't commit. The got him to list the names of his commanding officers and he gave them the starting linup of the Green Bay Packers. He gave them nonsense.John McCain's stance on torture is WORSE precicely because he should know better!

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I just cannot believe that you are still justifying his stance on torture.If anything is a deal breaker for people, it should be this. This is insane!When did we become a country where people think that this is okay?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)