Anything Divine in the Bible?

This is a classic example of what I was saying earlier about subjective morality. Cavediver spends the majority of his posts insulting people and condemns others when they do it. It is clear there is no objectivity even in your pathetic manner of reasoning.You wouold be better spending your time reasoning (if that is possible) than insulting. There is no high ground here CD only objectivity. If you cant answer the argument just say so.D Bertot

Wow you really cant answer the argument can you? Are you aggrivatied that I answered Noseneds post, really it was no challenge at all.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.

The argument has been answered. Ned gave a pefect response. He addresses your issue with Dahmer and others of his ilk, but it appears you just don't have the intellectual capacity to understand what he is saying. Nevermind, I am sure there are other topics in which you can perhaps make a meaningful contribution. Leave this one to your betters...

CD writes:Oh I didnt miss anything but if I did you feel free to reproduce it, as you seem reluctant to do so. I believe that is called a smokescreen in debating, correct?You have had now four or five post to make an attempt to answer the argument I am presenting but all you choose to do is insult and be comical. Ill take that as an addmission of defeat. Again,what is your platform to condemn another humans behavior or Gods? Think you see the obvious contradiction you are involving yourself in, but dont feel bad there is no resolution to that kind of problemMy guess is that you should stay in the science department threads as you seem to understand very little about theology, morality and ethics, or how to even respond in a rational manner. Off to work, see you and others this evening. Your replies are at minimum comical.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

Can you supply us with an unambiguous statement of Thomas Jefferson that he was a Deist? Where did he state clearly that he was a Deist?According to John Orr's book English Deism the beginning of Deism was sparked by the book of Herbert of Cherbury (1583 - 1648). He is called "The Father of English Deism".The book was written in 1624 and called D Veritate (On Truth) and signaled the beginning of Deism in England.Hebert set forth five prinicples of religion which he believed were common to all people: I read that latter Deists expanded this list while some omitted V, about rewards and punishments in an afterlife.This "Father of English Deism" wrote: If Jefferson was a Deist I wonder how he could believe in truths of "divine nature" without a divine "Supreme God" as their source - a Divine Legislator if you will.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Then I apologize. Somehow I misattributed that to you. No harm, no foul. Either way it is a bigoted remark whoever said it. I believe in fairness from both sides in debate as that is what the moderators push for and it makes the debates less subjective and more objective. Sarcasm dooesn't come across very well in written remarks without face-to-face dialog. You didn't get some of my sarcasm and wit either, so that's ok. I don't consider you an enemy just a debate opponent (kind of like a sparring opponent in fencing)mnothing more, nothing less. Except you left out the part where I talked about the benefit of altruism. If you want to boil it down to one thing, this would be: altruistic behavior on an individual and a societal level benefits our species, self-destructive and collective-destructive behavior does not. If you want to debate that, go ahead. Sure there is. Why would ethics cease to exist if it was relative? As I pointed out in earlier posts in this topic i.e. Message 111, I could point to relative morality in the Bible as well. Can you tell me specifically the standards in the Bible that are not relative (i.e. do not change)? Sure. Your point? Also, there are Christians that agree with the theory of evolution. Biological evolution does not fully explain human morality. Sociology and human societal evolution does delve in to the origin, history and meaning of human ethics. No it isn't. They would be going against the majority of human beings that agree that there behavior is self destructive to the rest of society. Why is that irreconcilable or a contradiction? Albert Schwietzer states this concept well: ""Reverence for life affords me my fundamental principle of morality, namely that good consists in maintaining, assisting, and enhancing life, and that to destroy, to harm, or to hinder life is evil”. You know nothing about me, how can you tell what my intelligence or my religious background is besides what I have divulged to you? I do not presume to know you in any way shape or form whether your intelligence or otherwise. Besides it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Arguments for or against the divinity of the Bible, the existence of God, and whether or not biological evolution occurred should stand on the merits of the evidence provided and their logical soundness not on the merits of who argues for or against it. Great author C.S. Lewis was. I love his Chronicles of Narnia and Space Trilogy books as well as his friend J.R.R. Tolkeins books.However to counter, here is what Albert Einstein wrote: "Morality is of the highest importance - but for us, not for God.”Don't worry I don't take any of this too seriously. I have a pretty thick skin . Now I have to take my daughter to the Christmas Parade. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

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Can you supply us with an unambiguous statement of Thomas Jefferson that he was a Deist? Where did he state clearly that he was a Deist?

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I'm not aware that he ever said he was a deist, but I'm not a tremendous Jefferson scholar. Of course, I never said he was a deist, so I'm not sure why you're asking me this question. I said the closest label to apply would be deist. Here's what TJ said himself: I must say, I'm rather amused by your fixation on Jefferson. It's symptomatic of something I see in a lot of fundies; a misplaced importance on the ideas of authority-type figures when arguing to nonbelievers about the validity of christianity. It's perhaps most vividly illustrated when fundies talk about the "conversion" of Anthony Flew. I can't help but come to one of two conclusions. Either fundies think their own dogmas are bolstered by the discussion of such authorities' beliefs, or they think that nonbelievers will somehow suddenly convert if they only knew that authority-types agree with fundies. It's a fascinating behavior.In any event, it seems to me that this whole Jefferson vein in this thread is terribly off topic. If it really means that much to you, why don't you start another thread?

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

There's part of your problem, Bertot. Thr Greek and Hebrew part of seminary is somewhat useful, I guess, but all that time studying fictional entities and Ultimate Rights and Wrongs, when they're fictions, too, seems rather a waste of good intellect. My dad was a damn good preacher, but he'd have been a better mathematician or teacher.

Bertot is right, Cavediver. You haven't a clue regarding the Biblical eternal perspective on reality.Jehovah, the Biblical god via the Mosaic law, imposed strict and harsh laws upon one specific culture/nation on the planet which was to be groomed for the divine purpose of a Kingdom Of Heaven on earth, i.e. the Messianic Kingdom as prophesied by numerous OT and NT prophets, including Messiah Jesus himself.This nation, Israel, was to be unique to all other nations and cultures on earth. It must be a people who would endure global animosity, persecution and dispersion to actually be dispersed globally for a long period of time to return and become a Jewish nation called Israel after the times of Gentile occupation are finished in this land of Israel.To whom much is given, much is required. If a family, for example, became corrupt in this unique nation of Jehovah god the family was not allowed to live to corrupt the culture under the Levitical Mosaic law. Thus the harsh actions which were to be imposed upon this nation.As well, whenever the nation of Israel became corrupt to worship idols and foreign false gods, Jehovah raised up pagan nations such as Babylon, Assyria and Egypt to punish them and so to speak, refine/purify them in the fires of judgment.Now, you likely say, "BS." To that I would remind that the nation has been scattered, the land has been desolate for nearly a score of centuries and here they are gathered back, surrounded by hostile nations and blossoming again, just as the prophets proclaimed. I've said the above to say that had not Jehovah imposed harsh restrictions and harsh judgment on both pagan nations which were driven out of Canaan to be replaced by Jehovah's kingdom messianic nation and had not Jehovah imposed harsh judgment on the Israelites themselves to purge corruption from them, the messianic kingdom soon to come on planet earth a kingdom of righteousness, peace, long life and prosperity on planet earth would not have been possible, because Israel would have died off long before the messiah was even born.The bottom line to you and to all of our friends here at EvC, is that you either get with the program of God's kingdom on earth or you end up with all of the loosers in the end who miss out in spite of the evidence of the Biblical divine.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

How does Nosy's statement quoted above not equate to the basis for a standard of morality?

If your god's eternal plan for humanity is built upon the stoning of children, he can go fuck himself Didn't Hitler say something similar, Buz? Glory to God(win) as CD happily falls on his sword...

In fact, the Golden Rule is half of the summarization of the Ten Commandments as summarized by Jesus when he stated that all of the commandments rested on these two underlying principles (abe: of loving God with all of the heart and neighbors as oneself.)As well, this is evidence of the divinity of the Bible in that it was the Ten Commandments which established the Golden Rule. Centuries later the Eastern, the Greek and other religions picked up on this somewhat by varied versions of the part about treating others as one would be teated.However, unlike Jesus, the other religions, for the most part applied it exclusively to members of their own sects and cultures. This is especially so with Islam and the Quran which applies it pretty much exclusively to their own and not to the infidels or apostates. Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Would you like to provide specific scripture references for these predictions? One that I know about is Ezekiel 38 which is vague enough where it could talk about the release of the Jews after the Babylonian captivity and their return to Palestine shortly there after. Again, we don't know when many of these prophecies were exactly written down and they could have been written after the fact as well.You would be hard pressed to find any prophecies that are specific enough that their would be no doubt they apply to present day Israel. And even if this was the case how hard is it to fulfill a prophecy given 2000 years ago especially when you have the largest superpower on the planet supporting you. In any case, this would be a self-fulfilling prophecy in which Jewish and Christian Zionists wanted to fulfill this supposed prophecy of Israel being restored in the Bible and so they set about doing it. We could also look at Nostradamus writings and see supposed fulfillment of his predictions. Do you believe that Nostradamus is divinely inspired?
Basically people will believe what they want to believe. I will let you figure out on your own who the last quote is from. Believe me, it shocked me and it might surprise you as well (and no I am not religious I just don't think Jesus had the corner on religious deep thinking).

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

I still am waiting to see one shred of this so-called evidence. Please enlighten us.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

quote:

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As well, this is evidence of the divinity of the Bible in that it was the Ten Commandments which established the Golden Rule.

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Ah Buzzie, still lying for Jeebus I see.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat