Anything Divine in the Bible?

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When Jefferson wrote these words:

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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Thomas Jefferson never wrote those words. Thomas Jefferson wrote http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/022/0400/0440.jpg

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Do you think this "God" refered to is the same as the Creator in the Declaration of Independence ? I didn't ask you if you think he means Christianity's God. I know he had critical things to say about Christianity. So did A.W. Tozer, G.H. Pember, and other Christian teachers and scholars.

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It wasn't just that Jefferson had critical things to say about christianity. He didn't believe Christ to be the messiah. He believed Christ was a great moral teacher. But he didn't believe in the virgin birth. He didn't believe Christ died and arose for the dead. He didn't believe Christ performed any miracles.In short, he didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, nor did he believe in the divinity of the bible.

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I ask you if you think that this God (with an altar) and the Creator of his statement in the Declaration are the same entity?

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Objection, assuming facts not in evidence.

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Seems that Jefferson is refering to some grand Moral Law. Then I would ask who is the law giver for this transcendent moral law. Who is the Legislator?

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There is no law giver. There is no Legislator. Jefferson was a believer in Natural Law. Natural Law comes from nature.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

DA writes: Religious bigotry? I guess when fundies try and defend themselves from the onslaught of secular fundamentalist like yourself,we should just over looked it, as seems to be the practice on this website. By the way its woodwork not woodworks.Before I forget, we are sure that DA stands for Devils Advocate, correct? As I read through your comments, they reminded me of first year seminary discussions I used to have back in the early 70s. Its obvious you havent been debating very long.Humans govern themselves, because they have been given the ability to discern between right and wrong. This ofcourse has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The question was how does Brian decide what is right or wrong for anybody else but himself? What criteria does he use to determine that anothers behavior is evil or innapropriate. Then finally how does this finite fellow decide what the consequences should be for sin from a limited perspective as his. Go ahead and answer these questions for me DA. Again, poor debating tactics. This is not the question. The question is how can Brian denounce anyones actions as evil or bad. Whether there is a supernatural entity in the sky is another issues altogether. I will admit you have a skill for misdirection. If there is no objevtive morality no final ultimate right and wrong, then it would follow that our actions no matter how evil they may appear are nothing of the sort. And it is a contradiction of the highest order for him to even imply it in any form or fashion. If it is not then provide the criteria that allows him or others to make such proclamations.Try to stay on topic DA. If you are having trouble I and others can guide you along.So your argument is that intelligence is equivolent to morality? So, intelligence on an eternal or omnipotent level may be correct in its application of justice depending on what the eternal consequences are, correct? Atleast that is what you are implying in your argument above. Remember if you need to take this slow we can.Unfortunately, the miute or second an Atheist or agnostic opens thier mouth to condeme or denounce, from a moral perspective, they involve themselves in the worst form of self-contradiction.You brought up a good point though. If its not wrong for humans or animals to kill for food. Why is it not worng for humans to kill other humans for food, if that is thier desire. In other words why do we confine in prison a person that kills other humans for food purposes.While there is no hope that you will provide an answer that does not involve itself in contradiction, I might purpose that it is worng because an infinte, omniscient deity has determined it as immoral and given each human being this information inside ourselves. He has also given us the ability to choose between these principles in the category of freewill. Wow, you would think that a person with your lack of understanding in sciptural or moral issues would atleast try and sound intelligent. The title of the thread is,"Anything divine in the Bible", or the Bible study category, correct?Ok, simply provide the objective evidence that allows the Atheist or Agnostic to condemn any actions of others as immoral or evil. I think you see you cannot even get out of the starting gate, with the evidence you need to defend your above statement.If human intelligence implies a higher morality (as you suggest)than that of animals, then it would follow that an omnipotent deitys intelligence would imply an ultimate or overall objective morality, that allows his actions to be justified from a moral standpoint, correct? Hows that for evidence, I used your own standard of what constitues, right or wrong, applied against a real world. No its just easy to acknowledge, talent, skill and comprehensive knowledge when it is presented. Now dont be jealous DA, if you keep it up you may even develope some of his skills. But it takes alot of hard work dedication and long hours How much vision does it take to recognize that man clearly has the ability to distinquish between simple right and wrong behavior, verses that of say the animal kingdom. How much vision does it take to recognize that if you have no real objective standard of right and wrong, that one is in no position to condemn others actions, let alone Gods. Perhaps you are trying to hard to understand simple principles of reality and morality.Next time that ship comes in to port, get off and get some fresh air.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This is the single most disgusting thing I have ever read in regards to Christianity. So Jesus would have stood there watching Joshua et al stone an entire family to death and been quite happy that this did not contradict his own teaching? I think I may just have someone draw up a tract depicting this scene, and attribute it to you.I am constantly amazed by the vile twists that Christians will make in defense of their pathetic, barbaric, xenophobic OT god. I echo these sentiments 100%, and the fact that you could only respond to Coragyp's swearing quite adequately demonstrates your inability to deal with this. The god who ordered the slaughter by stoning of an entire family deserves only mockery and disgust.

I am sufficiently lazy to simply reply to your post with Nosy's words that you have so far ignored. Deal with them:

Thank you Buzzsaw,That is the most honest answer I have gotten out of most Christians on the Martin Luther issue. Most of the times I get some type of justification for his actions and what he states.Just a side note, you are right about the Peasant War it was a part of the ongoing economic, political and religious strife between the lower classes and the corrupt and oppresive aristocracy and royalty of Europe. These popular uprising eventually brought in an end to serfdom in Europe and the creation of the middle class. The Peasant's War in Germany at the tale end of this ongoing rebellion is what Luther is refering to. He distanced himself from many of the very peasants he preached too about reforming the Catholic Church and sided with the princes and other royalty of Germany, as well as calling for the extermination of these peasants when they tried to spread this reformation not only to the religious "governments" i.e. the Roman Catholic Church but to the secular governments of Germany as well (probably because he thought his own status as a religious leader would be threatened).

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

How does this jive with John 8:1-11 where Jesus states "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" to the woman caught in adultery. That is pretty diametrically opposed to Joshua 7! Why do you thinks the Sanhedrin and the rest of the Jewish leaders want kill him?Also, were not the Jewish leaders justified in stoning the adulterous woman? According to the Torah adultery is specifically condemned by God and punishable by death as seen here: and So why is Jesus so indignant about the Jewish leaders following the rules that God specifically commanded them to follow? And why does Jesus say the following? and This would be like me training my daughter how to fight, punch, etc and telling my daughter: "If someone tries to hurt you at school you need to do everything to protect yourself including fight if you need to" and then later when she get's into a fight and gets in trouble with the school officials telling her "Why didn't you turn the other cheek or walk away, isn't that what how I raised you. No wonder the freaking Pharisees and other religious leaders were so confused? Have you read the OT and the bloodshed spelt in the name of God? How in the heck does this jive with Jesus teachings? Even his own disciples where thinking that Jesus was a political and religious dissident who would bring down the corrupt Roman and Jewish governments and build an earthly kingdom in it's place all the way up to his supposed crucifixion. (That is if you believe everything written in the Bible, which I clearly don't and can go into later).There is an obvious and stark diametric disconnect between the Jewish laws of the OT and many of the teachings of Jesus Christ to anyone who objectively reads the Bible.To get back to the topic on hand: "Anything Divine in the Bible". Philosophers and free thinkers for centuries have had a pretty good hypothesis for why this is, however it shakes the worldview of Christianity and the supposed divine word of the Bible. I am pretty sure everyone here knows what I am talking about but will leave a pregnant pause and let you answer the questions I proposed above.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

My wife, friends and some of my other family members are born-again Christians. The difference is that we agree to disagree and go on with our lives. I have no problem with you defending your beliefs but when you state: Then yes, I and am sure Brian takes that as a personal insult to anyone who disagrees with you. Yes, that is bigotry. Yes, it is an idiom meaning that I try to see all sides of an argument and make a decision based on the soundness of its logic and the evidence which supports it. No I am not a Satanist, I am an agnostic. It is just a figure of speech. So how "Christian" is it to insult people you don't know? Doesn't the Bible say something about gossip? This is a discussion board, so my understanding is that any questions proposed are open for discussion by anyone. If you want a one on one dialog use email or peer-to-peer chat. Moderators let me know if I am wrong on this. Ok so it is open for everyone to answer? Make up your mind. I answered this already, do you read my posts? If you want a more expounded explanation go take an ethics class in college. No, you just choose not to read other peoples posts. I explained that in that very same post. Evil and good are defined by whether are behaviors as humans are acceptable or not to the rest of human society specifically it has to deal with the harm (psychologically, physically, etc) it places on other human beings and the human race as a whole. To boil it down to a biological definition: altruistic behavior is more beneficial to the human species than destructive behavior. This can also be seen in many of the higher intelligence organisms such as mammals and others. Most mammals will not arbritarily kill members of their own species without specific reasons (which I also noted in my previous post which you obviously didn't read): food, sex and collective self defense. Sure, whatever floats your boat. So you don't require evidence and logic to support your beliefs? Need I say more? BTW, you have no idea what my intelligence or knowledge of the Bible is, go read my bio that may clue you in. I could tell you where to stick your condescending, hypocritical attitude but I will be "Christian" and just choose to ignore your mindless drivel. Thanks. I have spent 35 years of my life trying to understand reality and morality and will hope to commit many more years doing the same in my endless search for knowledge and ethical treatment of my fellow human beings. I hope everyone does likewise. Actually I am a lead instructor on shore duty but will be going back to a ship soon to lead (and be a proxy father to) a division of 20+ junior sailors. But I will remember you Bertot when at my first port visit I go on liberty. I will toast a beer with my friends to you Bertot and your small view of the world!Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Cravediver writes:Geez, give me time there European complainicus, I will. However, I think the mighty Jayman has dealt with most of it, or will Whoo hoo, go Jaywill. And where is that insightful ICANT, you need to jump in here to boy.D Bertot

Squiddy writes:Why you worthless sack of cr...... No Im just kidding it sounds like fun. Wow, Im so old now I cant even remember those days overseas, they seem like a dream now. Probably best they are remembered as a dream actually. Thanks for remembering me, it brought a tear to my eye, just kidding but it sounds like fun, there squidward. Ill get to the rest of your post later today.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.

You are saying that he did not capitalize god ?Okay. Tell me when I am supposed to be crushed with dissappointment.http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/022/0400/0440.jpg Great answer. But not to the question I asked.I asked did you think the "god" was the same as the "Creator" ? Too bad. His loss. Objection, assuming facts not evidence.Thanks for at least stirring some interest in Jefferson's spiritual ideas, whose writings I'll have to look into more.Fortuntely, the Gospel and the Bible are not in need of Thomas Jefferson or the Declaration of Independence or even the existence of the United States of America to verify their divine nature to me.He needed them.I stand with my point that Jefferson appealed to a divine Creator (a god / God ) to bulster his concept of a just human government, Deist or religious critic notwithstanding.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

On Thomas Jefferson again Great thinker no doubt.Then again maybe those concepts interfered with his desire to jump into bed with his African slave woman with a good conscience.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

DA writes:Whoo, calm down boy. Brian is the one that made this statement to Jaywill, DA, pay attention. I was making a joke, never mind I guess you missed it. Its not important I think the secular fundamentalits here have insulting down to an art. However, I add some josting every now and then to lighten the mood. Its all in good fun, trust me Im not your enemy. Now that awful Cavediver, thats another story, ha ha. Sorry, no you didnt. Even if you consider that an answer, it falls way short of explaining how a person that does not believe in an ultimate or final objectivity or right or wrong, can question any actions others for any reason. You see DA its all subjective nonsense if the other does not exist. We are just animals of a different sort, doing what suits us. The moral majority is just a collection of subjective relativism. If another group decides otherwise, who is correct. NOw do you see? My friend there are no such things as ethics, if it is all relative. It is all relative if there is no ultimate right or wrong or ultimate objectivity. Come on DA this is first year seminary stuff. There is no way around this contradiction. If evolution is true and Gods laws are not real or applicable then it is just animals do something sdifferent than other animals. This is all very beautiful but it is also very subjective and relative and only a matter of perspective if there is no ultimate standard. What if someone like Jeffery Domer disagrees with you or Hanibal lector or any other person, who is correct and on what basis do you decide. It is an irreconcilable contradiction. Yes I do. But that is the point you can provide none for your position, correct? This is an exercise in futility outside Gods divine revelation, but happy hunting anyway. Its like C.S Lewis stated, there is no reason to talk about something being evil if there is no ultimate good.Anyhoo, have a nice day. Also, dont take my gesting to serious.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.

Cavediver writes:Wow, you fellas really are clueless in these areas arent you. Deal with WHAT? All I have to do is simply say I disagree, to demonstrate my point. If I disagree with Ned, who is right, correct or wrong. Thats the point, nobody is right or wrong and you do not have a platform to condemn any of my actions. I have no platform to say that Jeffery Domer is a monster or evil. My suggestion is that you and Brian get a clue before you start condemning a God that has an eternal perspective on reality. You condemnation of him is simply ludicrous and illogical, because you possess no standard of what we call morality.Your kidding me. Another reason you make judgements is because it feels good. How good do you think it feels to Mr. Domer or the son of Sam to participate in thier actions, probably very good. Again, rehtoric and eloquence will not extricate you from this contradiction.
D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

You're a sad coward, Bertot. You claim the high ground while desperately trying to reclassify your foul verbage as joking. You fool no one. You were casually throwing around the 'junior' insult sometime before I had the sad mispleasure of addressing your intellectually-challenged drivel. And don't think I missed your "cerial "killer comment earlier Don't worry, I managed to calm down the weetabix and cornflakes, who were cowering in their respective boxes... oh, and "gesting" has a "j"...

Hey Bertot, you support a god who thinks that stoning an entire family to death is a good thing. You are one sick twisted individual. Next to you, Dahmer (that's a D, an a, an h, an m, an e, and an r) doesn't appear all that bad...