Anything Divine in the Bible?

GM writes:In fact I did answer his question and it is not a matter of what I think, that is what got us in this mess in the first place, man trying to decide what is right or wrong. I thought we were discussing what God does as evil or not. Have you been following along?I personally do not understand all there is in the talking of the life of a child anymore than I agree with slavery, but what does my opinion have to do with an omnipotent God?

DA here is another good example. You are in the Navy and I was in a real service,the Air Force, ha ha Now if we were drafted and held in that status aginst our will, could we not be condidered as slaves of a sort. We could not leave without consequences correct. Think about it? Slavery has a very broad meaning, correct?Do you know what kind of movies pirates and Navy personel are not allowed to see? Rrrrrr, moviesD BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

No slave can leave slavery without consequences when caught.

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I hunt for the truth

What does my profile name have to do with anything? It is just a title. If I called myself "God's Advocate" would my posts mean anything different than what I intended them to mean?You have no idea what my moral standpoint is, much less if I am shedding crocodile tears. I have had intense discussions of these very topics with my wife, who herself is a born-again Christian so you know nothing of me so don't try to psychanalyze me. Satan, like God, does not exist, in my own personal opinion. Do you not still teach out of the OT? Do you not still cherry pick the good things out of the Bible and not seriously discuss the attrocities that took place on behalf or commanded by God? I grew up 30+ years in the Christian church and know this to be a FACT! How does this wisdom, love, mercy, peace and grace jive with the hatred, war-like, unforgiving, bloodthirsty attitude of your god in the OT? I took everything seriously and that is why I understand and I believe what I do today. The problems is most Christians (as well as many other religions) wear rose-colored glasses and only want to see the "good" things out of the Bible and their religion and blatantly disregard and ignore the ugliness that is there. Yes, I understand the Christian message you present, however, you are unwilling to recognise the destructiveness this religion has and continues to cause.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

That is not slavery, maybe indentured servitude but not slavery. Slaves do not get compensated with the kind of benefits, entitlements, rights, and monetary wages that we get in the military. The military pays me a monthly salary, as well as money for housing, food and other bonuses. This is well enough for me to live in a $220,000 new-construction house and for my wife and I to live pretty comfortably. I go home about 1600-1700 (4-5pm) everyday on shore duty and am given money for college and other conveniences. The military is an all VOLUNTEER force and at the end of anyones enlistment they can call it quits or reenlist.Tell me a slave that ever had these conveniences.No one in there right mind would call us slaves as hard as military duty can be. There is no comparison to even an E-1's living standards and that of an African slave or a slave in the OT. Those slaves had NO rights and could never leave unless granted their freedom by their masters. There conditions varied but they were always at the whims of their slave masters. Under OT foreign slaves were not guaranteed any mercy by God or their Hebrew slave masters (he only commands that the Hebrews not treat other Hebrews mercilesly). I almost chuckled

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

DA writes:It is not always a vol force and that is the point. Go tell the people of the civil war and WW2 about you convinences. Should God intervine here to tell govs that they are wrong for imposing the draft against peoples will, or does he view it as a nature course of affairs that he lets people decide upon.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.

In Genesis 15 there is an interesting passage. God speaking to Abraham tells him that He is not yet ready to bring Israel into the land of Canaan. The reason being that the people have not gotten bad enough yet to warrant judgment: The armies of Israel were not to go into Canaan for another 400 years. Why? God says that the Amorites are not yet deserving of such a harsh judgment. Their iniquities are not yet complete.So God had His sense when the conquest of Canaan was a deserving judgment upon the people. Then He gave them another 40 years to disperse, stop their crimes, or repent. That is because the Hebrews wandered into the wilderness for another 40 years after they left Egypt.This also implies that there were divine warnings to the Canaanites that they should stop their iniquities. For example Balaam was a Gentile prophet. Jethro was a priest of the Most High God. Neither one were Jews.The hardest of the hard were therefore left to be judged by the conquest of Canaan. The people saw what was coming for at least 40 years. They knew that God was with Israel because of what had occured in Egypt and at the Red Sea.I have to assume that those who did not disperse those evil societies and stop their crimes were the recipients of the merciless conquest.The interesting thing is that Israel somehow got a reputation have having merciful kings, though I can't find the reference right now. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

That's usually what they say. "What does my profile name mean?"
"What does my tag name mean?"With such explicit words it is your welcome mat, your introduction, what you intend to DO.
Okay. There are more significant things. You seem to be putting up the standard arguments against God based on moral outrage. "At least I'm not so bad as to ....". That's the jist of it. Vica Versa then. If you write and I have no idea what you're really thinking then do you apply the same rule to others? I'll be watching. Why would you want to give the impression that you are the advocate of someone who doesn't exist ?That's curious. There is a difference between teaching the type, symbols, shadows, and prophecies in the Old Testament and teaching people to try to keep the Law of Moses.Lessons of God's faithfulness are in the OT. Symbolism vital to the New Testament are in the OT. Prophecies are there. Examples of God's ways are there.Much to nourish the spirit and enlighten the conscience are there. So yes, we Christians need the NT and the OT. Have you examined how Jesus used the Old Testament? Have you paid attention to how Peter, John, and Paul used the Old Testament? What you can "cherry pick" I would refer to as being led of the Spirit as a proper teacher of the oracles of God should seek to be.I don't think God committed any attrocities that render Him evil.I think with increased spiritual experience and growth, some things which I find hard to understand will in the future be made more clear. That is what has happened in the past.At first I didn't understand a lot of things that God did, both in the Old and New Testament. Then as I grew spiritually many things became more clear to me. I do still have some problems with things. But because of my experience I assume that understanding will deepen in the future.It does fascinate me that there is always something in the Bible for someone not to like. I don't think there is a person on the earth who likes everything written in the Bible without exception. It steps on our toes somewhere all the time.I never met one single person who liked everything they read in the Bible. So I continue mine this encredible treasure. There are 150 Psalms in the Bible. Have you read any of those 150 Psalms? Would you say that there is not forgiveness in those Psalms?Would you say that in those 150 Psalms there are no expressions of peace and mercy?Okay, let's then consider a hard core book like Joshua. Would you say that there are no instances of God's mercy, God's forgiveness, God's leading people into peace in the book of Joshua?Would you say in the story of Rehab there is no forgiveness? Not only did she get saved but the whole house of prostitution got saved.Did you read the story of how the Israelites kept covenant with the Gibeonites and did not slaughter them? They were afraid of offending God by breaking an oath of peace with them.Did you notice how one Canaanite king, being caught, proclaimed that he knew that he was getting just what he deserved ?Did you read in the OT that God says that He takes no delight in the death of the wicked?Did you read that God calls Judgement His strange work, as if it is unusual that God should have to judge at all?My reading of the Bible is not lopsided. If I find difficult portions I put them on the back burner and continue my reading.Maybe you should put the book of Joshua aside for a time and read Esther or Ruth or some of the prophets of the Old Testament.Did you notice how God scolded the nations saying that though He used them to discipline another nation they went TOO FAR. And in their excesses He was angry with them ?I think there is a lot to this turkey feast. I guess I'm not hunting for bones to choke on. I hope you are not just looking for rationals to dismiss God. I recognize that the conquest of the land of Canaan was a harsh judgment upon nations who were having sex with animals, sacrificing children in the fire, had cult prostitute priestesses, and were doing many abominable things.I understand that the conquest had a dual purpose - one was to bring Israel into the Promised Land. And also to execute divine judgement upon some societies who had been warned to stop their sins.Perhaps, if I were an editor of the Bible I may have excluded some things from being mentioned. But God didn't ask my advice. The inclusion of potentially embaressing things in the Bible causes me to consider its CANDIDNESS and the faithfulness of its authors.If I were a Jew, I probably would not have included in the Bible that the national hero king David stole a man's wife and consipired to have him murdered to cover up the king's adultery. But the matter is exposed candidly.If the Bible included only things which I liked, I would be suspicious that perhaps this was not God speaking.Do you assume that from beginning to end the Bible should only include things which fit your disposition and taste?I don't stop delving into it because of Joshua's army. Who said I did not recognize destructive histories of Christianity?Why should I when Jesus Himself warned that many bad things would be done in His name. But there is a glorious side of the church of Christ. I am more impressed with that.I don't think that Jesus is a religion. I think religions are invented by people. Jesus is a living Person. God is not a religion to me. God is a living Person to me.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Then you would be assuming wrong, because your scripture is where the armies of Joshua are told to kill every living thing, babies and sheep included.

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

You most certainly did not. DA asked; It's a very simple question. If you are still insistent on dodging this incredibly simple yes/no question, I'll ask you directly;Do YOU think slavery is wrong?Can you answer this question without equivocation? I have. You claim to have an objective moral system. If this is case, you should have no trouble answering simple moral questions such as the one above. More equivocating and dodging of the question. Why can't you just say that you condemn slavery as immoral? What is the problem? It's easy. Look;I think slavery is wrong.There, wasn't that easy? Why are you, with your supposedly superior moral system, finding this so hard?Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

off topicEdited by rueh, : Comment off topic

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'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

Agreed. This is the kind of equivocation that I find rather unpleasant. Here is another unpalatable example; Literally?! Somebody call a cop!This kind of hyperbole is deeply patronising to those who have been and still are being held in actual slavery. There is no comparison. Pretty sick really. I am constantly amazed by the depths to which people will sink in order to defend their precious Bible.Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

Bertot are you calling all the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korean and Vietnam drafted soldiers, airmen and sailors, slaves? I would think they would disagree with this statement. Many of these military "slaves" volunteered out of a sense of honor and duty and many continued on with their careers in the military long after the draft ended. In fact, many during WWII volunteered because the pay was better than what they would get trying to find work in the "great dustbowl" states and others out of honor and a sense of duty to their country. Either way they received pay as well as other benefits and some were given the option to leave during these wars/conflicts and all after these wars ended. Do you know any slaves that got money to go to college and buy a house as many military members did after WWII (GI Bill)? Was it enough to adequately compensate you for putting your life on the line? Definately not, I don't there could ever be enough compensation for this, that is what makes serving in the military so unique. However, these drafted military members were not slaves!If you studied history you would know full well that slaves had 0 rights. They did not have the right to recieve equal pay for equal work or protection under the law that other citizens of that country received. They were not entitled to anything except what their masters decided to give them. They were literally kept alive for the whims of their masters. Very few slaves recieved freedom and none were entitled to freedom either by the state or in the Bible by God. Why do you think it was so easy for the southern slave owners in the US to back up their right to hold slaves using the Bible.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

It is very complete. I cannot deny that. I do not fully understand this matter.But I also notice that in the popular book of Ecclesiastes it says that there is a time for everything under the sun. Lots of people Christians and non-Christians like Solomon's book of Ecclesiastes. It includes these words: I wonder then that if there is also a time for this and a time for that for God, then He should show us so.I mean if there is for God a time to PITY and a time to show NO PITY, then He is almost obligated to honestly show us that it is so with Him also.Is it ALWAYS a time for God to show Pity? And if there is a time for God to show No Pity, isn't it better that we see that?I think that the perhaps the conquest of Canaan was an instance in which we needed to see that it was a time for God to show No Pity on those judged.Now I cannot make a general case that God is not merciful because that clearly flies in the face of so much more of the Bible's content. How can I make a generalized case that God always does not show pity ? There is too much contradictory evidence to that.So I assume that this book of Joshua is God faithfully disclosing to us that He had His time to show no pity.I am actually thankful that this difficult account is in the Bible. I consider that a Divine Candidness.Paul wrote "Behold the kindness AND severity of God ...".Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Here are how slaves were treated in the Bible, just so we understand the conditions they lived in: So it is ok to beat your slaves to submission and rape the women slaves, just not enough where the would die from their beatings. Here are a couple of images so this can sink in what conditions slavery was like (these are disturbing but I am trying to make a a crucial and lucid point): The condonement of slavery is so ingrained in the Bible that is was used by slave owners and prominent Christian ministers of the south to justify their actions in advocating slavery: Let me repeat. SLAVERY IS NEVER RIGHT! NEVER! NEVER EVEN WHEN YOUR GOD COMMANDS IT!!!!

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan