Summations Only

You're being far too generous. ICANT is just playing games. When he hears phrases like "the carnage on Wall Street" he doesn't really think that brokers are jumping out of windows and the SEC is mowing down hedge fund managers with machine guns. When you referred to his own carnage he knew exactly what you meant, he just chose to pretend otherwise, as he often does. He lost his posting permissions in [forum=-2] for pretty much the same behavior.That ICANT does this isn't a license for others to ignore the Forum Guidelines when debating with him, but it does help to be aware of what he's doing so you don't unwittingly waste too much time.--Percy

How Christians choose to characterize their views has nothing to do with the reality of those views. That Christians believe in a panoply of supernatural beings that they give various designations to like God and Satan, angels and devils, is no different than the pagan belief in many gods, such as the ancient Greek belief in Zeus, Hera, Ares, Apollo, Aphrodite and all the rest.Even God in the Bible acknowledged that he is not the only God when he advised in his first commandment to Moses that the Jews must hold no gods more dear than him.So you can choose which contradictory view you wish to hold, but you can't avoid a contradiction. Either you believe that multiple gods exist (whether you choose to call them gods or angels or some other term is immaterial) and that some are good and some are evil, or you believe that there is only one God and that he is equally responsible for both good and evil.--Percy

Wow! Is this pure irony or what? Thanks, ICANT, I couldn't have come up with a better example of your interpretational problems!Tell me, during your sermons, do you ever see your congregation trading lots of puzzled looks with one another? In fact, given your problems discerning reality, are you *sure* you're a pastor in a church and not a God-shouter on some street corner?I'm sorry for making fun at your expense, ICANT, but come on, how about developing a habit of reading carefully before responding, and of developing a bit of reticence so that your errors look more tentative and considered instead of like large-scale collide-at-top-speed-with-wall blunders.--Percy

Yes, I'm well aware your scriptures claim both that there are many Gods and that there is one God. A contradiction. There goes inerrancy. All gods are "man crafted". I didn't say you worshiped angels or devils. I said you believed in them. You believe in a host of supernatural beings who interfere in the affairs of men, just as the ancient Greeks believed. That you've chosen to worship only one of these supernatural beings is beside the point, and it's also the same as many ancient Greeks, who often chose to worship only one of the many gods. After all, so many gods, so little time, you know how it is. No, Buz, you're not beginning to understand what sort of deist I am, because it's obvious you don't know the meaning of the word "deism". Here's the definition from Answers.com: Gee, what do you know, I'm a mainstream right down the middle-of-the-road deist! What, Buz, did you think deism was some kind of semi-mainstream religious sect?Deism is a bit more varied than this simple dictionary definition hints at, but it's good enough for our purposes.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.

Mod's parody was about belief in Zeus, Hercules and so forth, not atheism. There's no more evidence for your God than for Zeus.Many here (but not me, at least not generally) see the inculcation of religious beliefs in children as harmful, and apparently you agree, except when it comes to your own religion. Why am I not surprised?--Percy

A fantasy of mine is that the world's religions should hold a conference where they hash out which is the one, right and true religion. Once they reach agreement they can get back to us about their position on evolution, the Big Bang and such.--Percy

I didn't say that it did. That Christians give their panoply of gods different names than the ancient Greeks is mere vocabulary. The fact of the matter is that Christians, just like ancient pagans, believe in many supernatural beings who interfere in the affairs of men. There's one who they worship, a number whom they respect, and one who they fear. What? You haven't been paying attention to the preachings in this very thread of the Right Reverand ICANT?Hey, look Iano, if you want to be skeptical of all this stuff then I'm right there with you, but only if you treat your own views to the same skepticism, okay? You and ICANT and Buzsaw each reject the others' views, and the rest of us here reject them all.ICANT's solution to the multiple gods problem of Christianity is that angels and devils are just alternate manifestations of the one true God. If you believe that ICANT has no material evidence for his views on Gods and devils, but that you do have such evidence for your own views, then you two are just opposite sides of the same deluded coin. You can't all be right, and given the lack of any real evidence it is very likely that any conclusions any of you draw will be wrong and lack any correspondence to reality whatsoever.But hey, if you and ICANT and Buzsaw *do* reach a consensus, then all you have left to do is reach a consensus with the rest of the Christian world. And once you achieve that, then you have to reach a consensus with the Jews, the Moslems, the Hindus, the Buddhists, and so on. When that's all done, then come back and tell us what the final word is on God, gods, angels and devils.In the meantime, back here in reality, we'll just go with what the evidence tells us.--Percy

The way I've been saying this is that Christians *believe* in both God and Satan, but they only worship God. "God" is the name they give to the god that they worship. "Satan" is the name they give to the god that they fear.--Percy

Here's the operative definition from yourdictionary.com: Satan is a god. No, once again, I never said that Satan was (capital G) God. I said that Satan was one of the gods in whom Christians believe. I didn't say they worship Satan, though I suppose some do, only that they believed in him, meaning that they believe he exists, in the same way they believe God exists. It just so happens that Christians think so much of the god known as God that they worship him, as opposed to the god known as Satan who they fear.I know I must have said the same thing a number of times now, sorry to be so repetitive, but this is the third time you've repeated that I said Christians believe Satan is God when I didn't say that. It is ICANT who believes Satan is a manifestation of God and not an independent entity. Work it out with him.--Percy

Iano, your errors are becoming epic.First, there's no such word as "panapoly". The word is "panoply".Second, if you don't know what the word "panoply" means, then you can't know whether there's any such thing as a "panoply of gods".Third, I said "panoply of gods" with a lower case "g". You quoted my precise words, including the lower case "g" in gods. Yet when you replied you said "panapoly (sic) of Gods" with an upper case "G", which is not what I said. And presumably you had just read the messages where I had already corrected you about this three times, yet here you are repeating the error yet again for a fourth time.Can you get nothing right?Anyway, Christianity most certainly does have a panoply of gods: God, Gabriel, Michael, Satan, etc. This is just like many ancient religions. I've been using the example of the religion of ancient Greece which had its own panoply of gods: Zeus, Hera, Apollo, Aphrodite, etc. Gods, devils, angels, sprites, spirits, ghosts, leprechauns, elves, these are all supernatural beings or entities for which there is no objective evidence and in whose existence many people believe anyway. Yeah, no kidding. Like it wasn't bloody obvious. You want me to forgive you for making me go over and over the same ground wasting an hour writing so you don't have to do five minutes of reading? Gee, that's a tough one, let me get back to you on that. In the meantime, could you please put in some effort and be informed about the thread you're participating in in your next reply? It would be much appreciated.The problem with Christian belief in God, the angels and the devil is that it means that Christians believe in more than one god. ICANT gets around this by arguing that the angels and the devil are merely alternate manifestations of the one true God. In his view Satan is not an independent entity and cannot do anything that is outside of God's will.I replied to ICANT that that means that evil is God's will, and ICANT replied that this was correct.As to who's right, you or Buzsaw or ICANT, you're all arguing about fiction. None of you are right.--Percy

You're getting caught up in vocabulary. God or god or angel or devil or spirit or sprite or elf or ghost, these are all just various designations for supernatural beings. The distinctions between them are important to Christians because some of them are part of your belief system. To Christians, God is real, angels are real, the devil is real, but elves and sprites are not real. To non-Christians none of them are real, they're just different types of supernatural beings that don't really exist.So no, I'm not saying that Christians believe in Satan as a god. Why would I try to tell Christians what specific words to use when describing their beliefs? But Christians do believe in a host of supernatural beings. One of those supernatural beings is God whom they worship. Another of those supernatural beings is Satan whom they fear.And God is apparently not the absolute lord over his domain, because as you yourself have told us, God and Satan are in a battle for the souls of men. Whether you prefer to think of Satan as a "lesser god" or a "lesser supernatural entity" doesn't change the reality that just like ancient Greeks believed in Zeus, Hera and the rest, you believe in God, Satan and the angels. There's no difference of any substance.--Percy

This is ICANT's view, that Satan is not an independent entity. In this view Satan is carrying out God's will by tempting men to reject God's will.As I've been saying, both these Christian alternatives, of multiple gods on the one hand and of God being the source of both good and evil on the other, contain contradictions.--Percy

Buz, what part of "You're getting hung up on vocabulary" didn't you understand? I already said it doesn't matter what label you use, it's still the same thing. A rose by any other name and all that sort of stuff. If you don't like the term "gods" use another term. We all know we're talking about supernatural beings.You believe in a supernatural realm whose residents interfere in the affairs of man, where God is the ruler and all the other supernatural beings work to implement (the angels) or thwart (the devil) his will. How is this substantially different from the Greek Gods of Mount Olympus whose residents interfere in the affairs of man, and where Zeus is the ruler and all the other supernatural beings work to implement or thwart his will? As I told you the first time, it means there's a contradiction in your Bible, since in the very first commandment God makes explicit reference to other gods that he prefer man not favor over him.--Percy

ICANT, you had ample opportunity to be clear the first time around, you chose to be cryptic. The fact that you're only now realizing the implications of what you said is you're own sad fault. I had said that believing in both God and devil means that Christians believe in multiple gods (supernatural beings, if you like). Your solution for this was that the devil is actually just a projection of the will of God and so is not another god, remember?Naturally this conflicts with the views of other Christians and is what prompted this exchange between you and Buzsaw: Naturally Buzsaw enlightened you, but your responses trailed off into crypticness and ambiguity, leaving Buzsaw nothing to reply to. But you haven't changed your mind, have you? You still believe that the devil can only do what God allows him to do, right? You just don't have the guts to argue the point with other Christians.So should I guess that you'd now like to change your position? Would you now like to concede that Christians *do* believe in more than one supernatural being?--Percy

Christians like to differentiate themselves from pagan religions by pointing out that they believe in one God, but in reality Christians believe in many gods, just like pagans. They simply attach the label "God" (capital G) to the head god, then attach other labels like angels to the other gods.But how are angels different from the lesser pagan gods, such as Greek gods like Hermes. Hermes could fly freely between the immortal and mortal worlds. Can't angels do the same? Hermes could perform miracles. Can't angels do the same? There is no substantial difference between the minor gods of the ancient Greeks and Christian angels. In reality Christians believe in a host of supernatural beings, just like the ancient Greeks, and the fact that they prefer the label "angels" instead of "gods" is just a matter of nomenclature.--Percy Edited by Percy, : "Gods" changed to "gods" in one place to avoid confusion.