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Author
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Topic: I Am Not An Atheist!
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Almost there
Hi cat,
bluescat48 writes: How do you know that Satan didn't deceive the writers of the Bible, too. The original was inspired by God. But the translations was done by man and could contain error. That is the reason God gave the Holy Spirit to each one of them to teach them all things.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 153 of 382 (498030)
02-07-2009 12:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 145 by caldron68
02-07-2009 12:28 AM
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Re: To Believers
Hi caldron68,
caldron68 writes: Ok, I agree, carnage was not the correct word to use in this case. Let's use damage instead. Happy? Much better. That is what you meant in the first place. That I was doing damage to the person. Then you give me the reason you think I am doing damage which I address below.
caldron68 writes: Telling a child that they're going to hell if they sin is child abuse. That would be debatable. But I don't tell children they are going to hell if they sin. I tell them the same thing you read here if you read my posts. The only difference in a person in heaven and hell. The one in heaven is a saved sinner and the one in hell is a lost sinner. So whether you are a sinner or not is a mute point. John tell us the only reason a person goes to hell or the lake of fire as I prefer is:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John says you are condemned because you have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Not because you are a sinner. Not because you have not joined the church. Not because you have not been baptized. Not because you have not lived for God. Not because you have not followed God's rules. Not because you have not done many wonderful works. Not because you have not helped the poor and downtrodden. But because you have not believed in the only begotten Son of God. That would involve believing that God IS. As well as believing God will do what He says He will do. Then trusting Him to do what He says He will do. So I pass your test for not inflicting child abuse as I do not tell them or anyone they are going to hell or the lake of fire because they commit sin. So what damage do I do if I tell them God loves them and His only begotten son died for them and if they would believe in Him that He would give them a wonderful life with Him in a place called heaven one day? Now if I am wrong and there is no God, Jesus, heaven or lake of fire and they live a happy, fulfilled, contented life helping all those they can and harming no one along the way. When they die they are buried and then nothing. Please explain the damage I have caused to them. Be specific. If you are wrong when you tell your children there is no God, Jesus, heaven or lake of fire and they live a happy, fulfilled, contented life helping all those they can and harming no one along the way. When they die they find themselves facing Jesus and He says to them depart ye into everlasting punishment I never knew you. Being specific. You will be directly responsible for their being in the lake of fire. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 145 by caldron68, posted 02-07-2009 12:28 AM | | caldron68 has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 154 of 382 (498033)
02-07-2009 1:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 146 by Percy
02-07-2009 4:37 AM
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Re: To Believers
Hi Percy,
Percy writes: Get used to ICANT's misinterpretations when he doesn't have an answer, Please explain how I broke the Forum Guideline number 8. Avoid any form of misrepresentation. Which I presume you are referring too. In Message 137 I can not correct my behavior with knowledge of what you are referring too. You can do this by e-mail if you prefer as it is off topic. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 146 by Percy, posted 02-07-2009 4:37 AM | | Percy has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 159 of 382 (498050)
02-07-2009 4:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 158 by Percy
02-07-2009 2:48 PM
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Re: To Believers
Hi Percy, Enjoy yourself. Just educate me please. In Message 136 caldron68 said:
quote:
BTW! It's not what YOU personally have missed by believing in a fantasy, it's the carnage that you have left in your wake.
I am dumb, so I looked up carnage in the dictionary. I found this:
1. Massive slaughter, as in war; a massacre.
2. Corpses, especially of those killed in battle. Source Now I am one who takes things literal. So I believe a man says what he means and means what he says. Therefore I asked caldron68 in Message 137 to:
quote:
So enlighten me on the "Massive slaughter" I have left in my past. Be very specific.
Percy have I misinterpreted anything so far? In Message 138 caldron68 asks me:
caldron68 writes: ICANT writes:
So enlighten me on the "Massive slaughter" I have left in my past. Be very specific.
Ok, how many children have you introduced to the concept of hell, the lake of fire, eternal damnation, torment, torture, everlasting pain and suffering? Now caldron68 is inferring that I have caused massive slaughter of these children because I introduced them to the concept of hell, the lake of fire, eternal damnation, torment, torture everlasting pain and suffering. Is this where I misinterpret what he is saying or am I misinterpreting what he meant to say? Since I am not into second guessing what anybody means I respond in
Message 140.
ICANT writes: caldron68 writes: Ok, how many children have you introduced to the concept of hell, the lake of fire, eternal damnation, torment, torture, everlasting pain and suffering? What does that have to do with Massive slaughter or corpses, especially those killed in battle.? I was asking for clarification, which I got in Message 145.
quote:
Ok, I agree, carnage was not the correct word to use in this case. Let's use damage instead. Happy?
Now I and any 12 year old that reads this thread can understand that caldron68 is telling me I damaged these children by introducing them to the concept of eternal punishment in hell. He then states the charges for me to answer, which he could have plainly stated in message 136, instead of making the outlandish charges which he did.
quote:
Telling a child that they're going to hell if they sin is child abuse.
Which I answered with I have never told anybody they are going to suffer eternally for sin. I do tell people that if they refuse God's offer of a full free pardon they will suffer those consequences. Now at what point did I misinterpret what caldron68 actually said?
Percy writes: Tell me, during your sermons, do you ever see your congregation trading lots of puzzled looks with one another? No. If anyone has a question they stand up and ask the question.
Percy writes: Wow! Is this pure irony or what? Thanks, ICANT, I couldn't have come up with a better example of your interpretational problems! I guess that was a big blunder. But I was asking for clarification. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 158 by Percy, posted 02-07-2009 2:48 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 195 of 382 (498306)
02-09-2009 3:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
02-08-2009 7:54 PM
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Re Gods
Hi Percy,
Percy writes: ICANT's solution to the multiple gods problem of Christianity is that angels and devils are just alternate manifestations of the one true God. I don't think I said that. Percy in Message 127Percy writes: In my Message 116 I say:
Percy writes: You said that "the devil will and has taken everything in his power and used it to get people to not accept God's offer of a free full pardon since the incident in the garden with the first man." You also said the devil has no free will but can only do God's will. Therefore, it is God's will that the devil work at getting people to reject God. Right?
To which ICANT replies in his Message 124
Anyone (besides ICANT) care to comment? --Percy 1) Message 128 I said:
I simply said I believe the devil is using anything and everything to keep people from accepting God's offer of a free full pardon. 2) Message 102 I said:
The devil is a created evil being. I have never found where the devil had free will and could do what he wanted to do. For him to be a god that would be necessary. 3) In Message 114 I said:
Percy God created angels to do everything He desired them to do. I find where none had a choice. They were created to serve Him in whatever capacity He gave them. The devil is an arch angel in charge of 1/3rd of the angels and is subordinate to God and Michael. Now how you can get that I believe the angels and the devil are manifestations of God is beyond my reasoning. I do believe that GOD IS. — elohiym plural def. rulers, judges, divine ones. And that he is manifest in three different ways as: God the Father, all knowledge. Yehovah def. the existing one. God the Son, the physical God man that died on the cross. — Immanuwel def. God with us. God the Holy Spirit which keeps those who are born again and guides them in all truth. godesh def. holiness, sacredness of God. ruwach def. wind, breath, mind, spirit. Those three are the only manifestations of the one God. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 176 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 7:54 PM | | Percy has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 197 of 382 (498314)
02-09-2009 4:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 177 by Percy
02-08-2009 7:56 PM
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Re: God and god
Hi Percy,
Percy writes: The way I've been saying this is that Christians *believe* in both God and Satan, but they only worship God. "God" is the name they give to the god that they worship. "Satan" is the name they give to the god that they fear. Why should anyone fear Satan? He can't do anything that God doesn't allow him to do. God is the one to be feared. Because if your name is not written in the book of life you will be cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 177 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 7:56 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 199 of 382 (498316)
02-09-2009 4:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 196 by onifre
02-09-2009 4:02 PM
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Re Gods
Hi oni,
onifre writes: Because god created them. Genesis 1:1 In the begining God created the heaven and the earth. Thus they are a manifestation of God. Genesis 1:27 God created mankind in his own image. Thus that makes man a manifestation of God. Genesis 1:21a And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth. Thus that makes them a manisfestation of God. Is that what you are saying oni? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 196 by onifre, posted 02-09-2009 4:02 PM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 202 by onifre, posted 02-09-2009 4:42 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re Gods
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: 1) God created Satan 2) Satan has no free-will I believe God created the evil devil, satan, serpent, whatever you want to call that evil one. I believe he was created for a specific purpose to give man a choice as I have stated many times. He does not have free will as he is a tool of God created for a specific purpose. I was a contractor and over the years I created several tools that helped me get the job done so as to reach the result I wanted. Does that mean those tools are a manifestation of me? If they are please explain how they are. If they are not please explain how a tool that God created to reach the result He wanted is a manifestation of Him. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 198 by Straggler, posted 02-09-2009 4:12 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 203 of 382 (498324)
02-09-2009 5:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 200 by Percy
02-09-2009 4:30 PM
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Re Gods
Hi Percy,
Percy writes: So should I guess that you'd now like to change your position? Would you now like to concede that Christians *do* believe in more than one supernatural being? First of all I can only speak for myself. Everybody else will have to speak for themselves. I believe in one God. I believe that one God who is manifest in 3 different ways created billions of supernatural angels. Of which 1/3rd was evil angels who has the devil as their leader. These angels were created to preform specific jobs and they do them without question. So yes I believe in angels. The Bible tells me God created angels. The Bible does not tell me God created gods. Now if you want to insist the angels are gods I can't stop you. It is within your free will to believe anything you want. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 200 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 4:30 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 204 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 6:10 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 205 of 382 (498326)
02-09-2009 6:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 202 by onifre
02-09-2009 4:42 PM
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Re Gods
Hi oni,
onifre writes: As it pertains to this discussion, yes. And since you said angels are created by god, they too are a manifestation of his. Agreed? Not agreed. I take exception to your interpretation of Webster. So according to your definition you give from Dictionary.com from Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. You can conclude that everything God created is a manifestation of God?
quote:
Manifestation: Man`i*fes*ta"tion\, n. [L. manifestatio: cf. F. manifestation.] The act of manifesting or disclosing, or the state of being manifested; discovery to the eye or to the understanding; also, that which manifests; exhibition; display; revelation; as, the manifestation of God's power in creation.
English wasn't my best subject so help me out here oni. 1) The act of manifesting or disclosing, 2) or the state of being manifested; 3) discovery to the eye or to the understanding; 4) also, that which manifests; ..a) exhibition; ..b) display; ..c) revelation; 5) as. Definition of as from Dictionary.com
as 1. to the same degree, amount, or extent; similarly; equally: 6) the manifestation of God's power in creation. I get from that God's power is revealed, displayed, and exhibited, made visible, and disclosed, in creation. I don't get everything God created is a manifestation of God. So please explain where I went wrong in my analysis. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 202 by onifre, posted 02-09-2009 4:42 PM | | onifre has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 212 of 382 (498339)
02-09-2009 8:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 204 by Percy
02-09-2009 6:10 PM
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Re Gods
Hi Percy,
Percy writes: Christians like to differentiate themselves from pagan religions by pointing out that they believe in one God, but in reality Christians believe in many Gods, just like pagans. They simply attach the label "God" (capital G) to the head god, then attach other labels like angels to the other gods. Percy as I understand from the Bible the angels were created for specific duties. They can only do what God will allow them to do, as shown in the example of Job. Therefore they are not Gods. I call them angels because the Bible calls them angels. If the Bible called them gods, I would call them gods. So it is not me that is attaching labels to them, but you seem to want to label them gods. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 204 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 6:10 PM | | Percy has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re Gods
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: A manifestation of God's will. Since you have no idea what God's will is let me put forth what Peter said it was.
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Now that is what God's will is. That none are cast into the lake of fire. But He created the devil so mankind could have a choice between good and evil. He then created mankind and gave him free will to choose to believe in Him.
Straggler writes: If you create a robot programmed to do your work is that a tool? Yes.
Straggler writes: Is that a manifestation of your will? Nope.
Straggler writes: Is the robot responsible for it's own actions or, are you as the creator and programmer of that robot, ultimately to be held responsible for the actions of that robot? If the robot was to malfunction the creator/programmer would be responsible.
Straggler writes: If that robot commits evil acts as a result of your programming is it evil? The robot's programming would have to be changed for it to commit evil acts. The devil does not malfunction he has been operating as long as man has been around. He has always done exactly what he was programed to do and that is to give mankind a choice. God's way or Man's way. The devil does not do any evil deeds as you want to put it. He has mankind to do all his evil deeds for him. He just puts the choices in front of them. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 209 by Straggler, posted 02-09-2009 7:35 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 218 of 382 (498374)
02-09-2009 10:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 214 by Percy
02-09-2009 8:32 PM
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Re Gods
Hi Percy,
Percy writes: So tell us, ICANT, how are angels different from the lesser pagan gods like Hermes. I thought I had addressed this in Message 212. The angels were created. The angels do what the creator allows them to do. Hermes was born. Hermes did as he pleased. That points out they are very different. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 214 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 8:32 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 219 by Percy, posted 02-10-2009 7:44 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 226 of 382 (498460)
02-10-2009 7:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 219 by Percy
02-10-2009 7:44 AM
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Re Gods
Hi Percy,
Percy writes: Wrong again. Hermes both followed orders and acted independently, pretty much just like the angels. So are you saying Hermes had free will? I can't find where an angel made a decision on his own. Was Hermes the son of Zeus and Maia? Angels don't have parents. Since you think angels have free will I will find more differences. The Greek Gods married. Angels don't marry. The Greek Gods had kids. Angels don't have kids. Some of the Greek Gods ate their kids. NA The Greek Gods died not immortal. Angels don't die they are immortal. The Greek Gods had wars and killed each other. Angels don' kill each other.
Percy writes: Then by your logic since Adam and Eve were created but Cain and Abel were born, they were all very different and not actually all human beings at all, right? Yes they were very different. Adam and Eve had no parents. Cain and Able were the children of Adam and Eve. So whatever Adam and Eve was so was Cain and Able. Now that you brought it up those Greek Gods have a lot more in common with Cain and Able than they do with angels. They had parents, Cain killed Abel, then got married and had kids, and died. The Greek gods seem to be more superhumans than gods.
Percy writes: Hey, angels have halos, Says who?
Percy writes: The biggest similarity between gods and angels is that they are all just inventions of the human mind. Then why argue what they can or can not do if they don't exist?
Percy writes: Doesn't having the power to answer prayers make one a god? I wouldn't have the foggiest idea I pray to — God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 219 by Percy, posted 02-10-2009 7:44 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 227 of 382 (498468)
02-10-2009 8:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 224 by Percy
02-10-2009 1:37 PM
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God and god
Hi Percy,
Percy writes: So concerning Christian angels and Greek gods, they can all carry messages, Hermes was the only Greek god that carried messages. Gabriel was the only angel that carried messages. I don't find where any other Greek god, or where any other angel carried messages.
Percy writes: they can all appear and disappear, I'll take your word for it.
Percy writes: they can all travel between heaven (or Mount Olympus) and Earth, Hermes was the only Greek god allowed to travel to heaven. Angels are free to travel as their duties require.
Percy writes: they can all disguise their appearance, I'll take your word for it.
Percy writes: In other words, they are all supernatural beings who can perform miraculous feats That would depend on your definition of what a miracle is. Paul and Peter performed miracles. They both caused the dead to live again, among other things. I don't know of any angels or Greek gods doing anything like that yet. Maybe you know some they have performed and will share.
Percy writes: and possess miraculous capabilities that they use to interfere in the affairs of men. I'll take your word for the Greek gods being able to do that. But the only miraculous capabilities that the devil and his angels have is the ability to put choices in front of human beings and get them to act. If they don't choose to perform whatever he wants done it will not be done. In the story of Job the devil used the Sabeans to take all the oxen and asses and kill all the servants but one. Job 1:14, 15. Fire (lightening) fell from heaven and killed all the sheep and servants but one. Job 1:17 The Chaldeans took the camels and killed all the servants but one. Job 1:17 A big wind (tornado) destroyed the eldest son's house with all Job's children and grandchildren in it. Job 1:18, 19. The devil had to have special permission to do these things. Permission was granted in Job 1:12. As I have said many times the devil is only there so mankind can have a choice. Without good and evil to choose between there is no choice. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 224 by Percy, posted 02-10-2009 1:37 PM | | Percy has replied |
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